From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote. Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:04:17 +0000 Message-ID: <20160504180417.GB31717@acm.fritz.box> References: <7e599cf6-18c3-1633-33d5-e9f4eaa8fe6a@cs.ucla.edu> <20160502191031.GB2048@acm.fritz.box> <83a8k7kv87.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503162716.GB11330@acm.fritz.box> <831t5jkrn2.fsf@gnu.org> <20160503200330.GC11330@acm.fritz.box> <83twidj0tj.fsf@gnu.org> <20160504164849.GA31717@acm.fritz.box> <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462385145 4221 80.91.229.3 (4 May 2016 18:05:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 18:05:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 04 20:05:35 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1B0-0004uX-Sh for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 20:05:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49555 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1At-00005M-SB for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:05:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37245) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1Aj-0008HW-PH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:05:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1AX-00051i-VF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:05:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:54038) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1AX-0004zX-SF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:05:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay1AU-00056S-F3 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:05:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 18:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 23425 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 23425-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B23425.146238506319567 (code B ref 23425); Wed, 04 May 2016 18:05:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 23425) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2016 18:04:23 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38142 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay19q-00055W-L7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:04:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:33517) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ay19o-00055L-B2 for 23425@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2016 14:04:21 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 34051 invoked by uid 3782); 4 May 2016 18:04:18 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FC46556.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.196.101.86]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 04 May 2016 20:04:18 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 32114 invoked by uid 1000); 4 May 2016 18:04:17 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83d1p1iwls.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117780 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 08:03:43PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 16:48:49 +0000 > > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 23425@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > That theory _is_ wrong, certainly amongst Emacs developers. Even in this > > > > bug thread, two other people have expressed negative sentiments about > > > > this matter. > > > So we have 3 people against that. Is it really enough? > > That's three people in this thread. Over the months, more people have > > expressed unhappinness about curly quotes, in the various ways they have > > been imposed on us. Yes, I think that is enough. > I don't. Please let's wait until 25.1 is released, the only way to > change this decision is if we see a lot of complaints about this. There won't be lots of complaints about this. There will be a few people who notice, and some of them will utterly hate it, just as I do. Some will have their Lisp rendered unworkable, just as happened to me. There are thousands of options in Emacs, and most users care about only a small subset (although the subset is different for each user). You could remove any option, no matter how "important", and you'd get only a small number of complaints. This doesn't seem to me like the way to judge things. > > The comments from the other two people have been less than fully > > respectful, and at least one of them is not known for making snide > > remarks. What does that tell you? > That some people don't like this. But we knew that back when it was > decided to have this feature. And when was this decision taken? The answer is it wasn't. Despite the great opposition to it, Paul plowed ahead with several varied schemes for curly quotes, not waiting for consensus first, and in the end, people just got tired of opposing him. > > Put frankly, the curly quote stuff was installed into Emacs without there > > being any consensus in favour of it, and was deliberately done in such a > > way that it could not be disabled (see below). > Not true. If there were no consensus, at least not a wide enough one, > this wouldn't have been admitted. That's not the way the Emacs project works. Most contributors work on a cooperative basis and first discuss contentious things and abide by understandings reached. You and I certainly do. That leaves us open to abuse by aggressive committers, who don't abide by the above convention. This is what happened with curly quotes. There is nobody in the project who feels empowered to revert "premature" commits. > The objections were not numerous enough and strong enough to prevent > these changes. The objections to curly quotes were extremely numerous (I've spent some time today looking at old threads), and support for them was sparse. [ .... ] > > If it is too late to go into 25.1, can we put a fix into 25.2? > I see no reason not to install a change along these lines on master, > if the new value is not the default. We'll see what we can manage. > > And yet again, I suggest `text-quoting-style' should become a > > configurable option, giving users the ability to chose how THEY want > > messages to be displayed. > And I yet again urge you to wait until 25.1 hits the streets, and we > see what the Emacs community at large thinks about this. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).