From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Valentijn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: First draft of the Emacs website Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:05:29 +0100 Message-ID: <20151208130529.GA28682@HAL9000> References: <87io4lem98.fsf@petton.fr> <56604A9C.7080508@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="liOOAslEiF7prFVr" X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449584857 11621 80.91.229.3 (8 Dec 2015 14:27:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:27:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs developers , John Yates To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 08 15:27:32 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a6JEl-0003my-2e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2015 15:27:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60057 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a6JEk-00057W-4b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2015 09:27:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34058) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a6Hxf-0006UG-6z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2015 08:05:44 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a6HxZ-0008Ij-SM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2015 08:05:42 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:35507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a6HxZ-0008IR-ED for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Dec 2015 08:05:37 -0500 Original-Received: from dovecot03.posteo.de (dovecot03.posteo.de [172.16.0.13]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3628220ABB for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:05:34 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail.posteo.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dovecot03.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3pFMF903ckz5vNQ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:05:32 +0100 (CET) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett X-PGP-Key: https://sks-keyservers.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x3472D06EC721BD07 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 185.67.36.65 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 09:26:52 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195978 Archived-At: --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/12 16:58, Drew Adams wrote:=20 > John, > My comments might have suggested that to you, but I don't think they sugg= est that. > > I too think the site should address itself to, among others, and in parti= cular, new users and young new users. > > I disagree that mention of Lisp need be offputting to such people. On the= contrary, I think that we can point to the advantages of Emacs being a Lis= p environment and being user-extensible by way of Lisp (among other advanta= ges). > > We can agree to disagree about that. But I, no less than you, I think, ha= ve new users and young users in mind.=20 > Just because I have a grey beard, that does not mean that my suggestions = are not aimed at those without grey beards and those (with or without beard= , and regardless of color) who might be new users. > > If I were a 13-year old, and I knew little or nothing about Lisp or Emacs= , I would be interested to hear something about Emacs being bathed in Lisp = and being, in fact, a Lisp environment, and that I (yes, as only a newbie E= macs user) could use some simple Lisp to extend and customize Emacs to fit = my 13-year-old self.=20 > That would be something that attracted me, as one 13 year-old, not someth= ing that put me off. All newbies, and all 13 year-olds, are not the same. > It has to be presented carefully, of course. There should be no impressio= n that one has to know Lisp to use Emacs. That doesn't mean that we can't m= ention Lisp as one of the BIG advantages that Emacs has to offer. Not to me= ntion that would be, well, burying the lead - the main story. IMHO. > Drew, Drew, I'm might be able, as a seventeen year old (since two days!), to a somewhat= interesting perspective on this. Some background information which might b= e useful: I'm a GNU/Linux user for the past two/threeish years, emacs user= since a year, a ex-vim user and tend to use the commandline a lot. You're on the right track with the lisp thing and it's a very important thi= ng to talk about but you're forgetting that the word Lisp doesn't really me= an anything to people as young as me. I mostly know it as the thing that po= wers in Emacs and the old AI labs. What Lisp was to you is what Python is f= or us (at least I assume). Putting the emphasis on Emacs having a full porg= ramming language which just happens to be Lisp is, in my opinion, a better = idea. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, things that made me interested in E= macs was the ease of customization and the high amount of plugins available= =2E One of the biggest thing that annoyed me with vim is how slow it would = get if you tried to install any plugin on it. It would take a minute to sta= rt up.=20 Another thing are the great tools that Emacs has. Things like org-mode, esh= ell/ansi-term, gnus, etc... are one of the things we really should be spend= ing more time on promoting. Recently I at least got one of my friends to tr= y Emacs simply because he liked org-mode so much. Somewhat related is the f= act that Emacs is such a powertool also helps. It really does feel like you= can do anything and more with it. Thank you for your time, Valentijn --=20 BOFH excuse #122: because Bill Gates is a Jehovah's witness and so nothing can work on St. Sw= ithin's day. --liOOAslEiF7prFVr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWZtWUAAoJEDRy0G7HIb0HdxAQANePGHrWmywxD10aL3Dvni/f 2R8/86i7hIxDMDo1ZE3vMXRyoAZFR6BQt7gULTUelx6y+gKyKRZMe90AKGOSITuR 0wahOkGCj8Kd9RGJKiretybsG3tefv0PClurgUDiRKfbIgKa0J/FbpqCU1jX7sSw erioh6AzvbVpI15sUiWuqVrjaQepNBVsBLrpZ0teBG0GqSdA5mRulcN4WvkYfZoy Qa+f0dEt0S8X1DCp+ItEiKr5kYhCVtOH/5qw7Mv8dEs2lSsOuB2f08nwGUeh2ALO VnN5qvlRs+igX9suEEYhWEUPMBlz6+jei6Z5eOKaY0MSXU/VnB+gMOBcoVrb6YM5 jj7iDVnBnxXFLMpbuDAzA8Heu9yhufryX5jDqS0I9mI089gkj0yTZozNkc6VL/r8 LKIk0l+1g+wkUk2dwMJvuP36377bvMHXHjaWCr8//7ogSlTpGrYqTc3MYsNkOShv Hj3ZS8+sK5XASEEG8y5QROPc+OvfZ0W2q5s8U7jeKCWues9osJhzgAqFRLfSF4Pz GQrnKr+s1YZlia+jlWmZsENoJcLH6QjFyWUpCoWp9wV0XbY/+BGJYZg3f779ZazM 1/JV16bpHOLIvzV9l3Y6K+ZBQSKldd3RKaY1LHL1kgD2WqwAOCkiBuphWDu86ozF 6CGyugs9JsWMW2egfKv3 =mCoz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --liOOAslEiF7prFVr--