From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ffb6ce 5/5: Quoting fixes in lisp/international and lisp/leim Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:02:52 +0000 Message-ID: <20150902100252.GC2544@acm.fritz.box> References: <20150831061236.27796.57762@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <55E3F434.2060507@yandex.ru> <55E496DC.1030608@cs.ucla.edu> <877foas9jh.fsf@gmail.com> <20150901190014.GB1997@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441188141 12630 80.91.229.3 (2 Sep 2015 10:02:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 10:02:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , Dmitry Gutov , Oleh Krehel , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 02 12:02:10 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX4ro-0007KD-Tx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:02:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35952 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX4rp-0002BT-5Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:02:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47081) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX4rW-0002Am-95 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:01:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX4rS-0004A7-82 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:01:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:53077) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZX4rR-00049k-V1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 06:01:46 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 19160 invoked by uid 3782); 2 Sep 2015 10:01:44 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B147729.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.119.41]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 02 Sep 2015 12:01:43 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 2737 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Sep 2015 10:02:52 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-Received-From: 193.149.48.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189454 Archived-At: Hello, Stefan. On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 12:07:03AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > Just to emphasize that `...' quoting is not at all ugly on my terminal - > > in fact, it's rather elegant. > Indeed, the font I see in my Linux console renders them OK > (pre-XFree86-4 style), but I think you're sadly in a minority. There's nothing sad about being in a minority. Anybody who runs Emacs with her own .emacs is in a minority of one. Anybody who runs Emacs on a platform that isn't GNU/Linux or Microsoft Windows or an Apple Mac is also in a minority. For that matter, anybody running Emacs at all is in a minority. > > However, using curly quotes is problematic. I run on a Linux > > virtual terminal. > Curly quotes render just fine in my Linux console. So it looks like > you're in an even smaller minority. Using my standard font, lat1-16, the curly quotes use the same glyphs as ` and ', hence are visibly indistinguishable from them. I tried creating my own glyphs for the curlies, and put them into a font, discarding two French-language glyphs to make room. They're ugly, but more importantly, my eye can't reliably distinguish a standard quote glyph from one of my new curly ones unless there's already a known quote on the screen to compare it with. But the ordinary user of a console is not going to have the time or inclination to go mucking around with fonts. > > So, PLEASE can we have adequate configurability, so that the user can > > decide for herself what's ugly, and whether it needs "fixing". > My request here is to figure out what *kind* of configurability is best. > Not whether configurability is desired. But you're not very forthcoming > with information about the concrete problems you see with curly quotes, > so we're likely not going to be able to provide the best kind of > customizability for you. All of what I write above I've written before. In addition, the necessity to type a C-x 8 combination to type a curly quote is a serious impediment. (For me, remapping ` and ' to things which aren't self-insert-command (or an electric command) is so inelegant as not to come into consideration). The sort of customisability I'm asking for is that in which the user decides whether ASCII or curly quoting characters are used in *Help*, messages, etc. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).