From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ian Zimmerman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Recursion problems with package management Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:23:24 -0700 Message-ID: <20150815030645.28862.169B208B@ahiker.mooo.com> References: Reply-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1439609026 6246 80.91.229.3 (15 Aug 2015 03:23:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 03:23:46 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 15 05:23:46 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS4P-0003nW-CC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Aug 2015 05:23:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48948 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS4O-0004SH-3d for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 23:23:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51298) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS4E-0004S0-BA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 23:23:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS4D-000494-Bm for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 23:23:34 -0400 Original-Received: from disorder-1-pt.tunnel.tserv3.fmt2.ipv6.he.net ([2001:470:1f04:51a::2]:46248 helo=acedia.primate.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS4D-00045s-36 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 23:23:33 -0400 Original-Received: from acedia.primate.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by acedia.primate.net (8.14.9/8.14.9/Debian-4) with ESMTP id t7F3NPs3014141 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:23:25 -0700 Original-Received: (from itz@localhost) by acedia.primate.net (8.14.9/8.14.9/Submit) id t7F3NO6G014130 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:23:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: acedia.primate.net: itz set sender to itz@buug.org using -f Original-Received: from itz by ahiker.mooo.com with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZQS44-0007XW-8Y for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 14 Aug 2015 20:23:24 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:470:1f04:51a::2 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:106606 Archived-At: On 2015-08-14 19:30 -0700, Rusi wrote: > tl;dr > Emacs package-managing emacs is thhe usual lure of Turing complete language can > do anything does not mean doing it is appropriate. > > If we must use elisp for it, it would be good to have a separate > 'binding-time'. Just as in the C world compile time and runtime are > rigorously separated, it would be neat IMHO if elisp running in > package-mgmt mode did it in batch-mode and required restart of emacs. > > Perhaps req-package is in the earlier binding time > And use-package the later one? **WARNING** **WARNING** **WARNING** Major snark mode on! The answer is obvious: let distros do what they're supposed to do, which is, um, packaging. Doh! Debian, for instance, already has the /etc/emacs/site-start.d directory to do load ordering. Now, there are three things I hear you screaming right now: 1. The mechanism is hardly used right now, with everthing loading at the same level (50). That's just an opportunity to do much better! 2. The mechanism is pathetically weak, with all the problems of SysV init on which it seems to be based. Again, so replace it - but with another (better) OS level thing, not with an Emacs thing. 3. Clearly we don't want maintainers to do separate packaging work for each distro. So, this is something that needs to be standardized among the distros. They _are_ willing to do that, when there's compelling technical case for it. In fact, I'm sending links to these threads to Rob Browning (Debian Emacs maintainer) right now. -- Please *no* private copies of mailing list or newsgroup messages. Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.