From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20707: [PROPOSED PATCH] Use curved quoting in C-generated errors Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 22:46:16 +0000 Message-ID: <20150609224616.GC3735@acm.fritz.box> References: <20150602204423.GA2619@acm.fritz.box> <55707236.6060605@cs.ucla.edu> <20150606155445.GE3418@acm.fritz.box> <557337CD.60706@cs.ucla.edu> <20150606205023.GA3862@acm.fritz.box> <55738BA9.7050104@cs.ucla.edu> <20150608171804.GA3184@acm.fritz.box> <55768D82.3040509@cs.ucla.edu> <20150609133423.GA3735@acm.fritz.box> <5577516B.9020709@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1433889988 20330 80.91.229.3 (9 Jun 2015 22:46:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2015 22:46:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20707@debbugs.gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 10 00:46:17 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHf-0003IW-65 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 00:46:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37178 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHe-0003Ix-Fk for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:46:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41893) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHa-0003Ib-GI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:46:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHT-00059z-SC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:46:10 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:36515) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHT-00059t-If for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:46:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHS-0002Nm-Kg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:46:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2015 22:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20707 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 20707-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20707.14338899539135 (code B ref 20707); Tue, 09 Jun 2015 22:46:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20707) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Jun 2015 22:45:53 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46490 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHH-0002NG-RT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:45:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:64717) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Z2SHE-0002N6-P2 for 20707@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2015 18:45:50 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 20626 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Jun 2015 22:45:47 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A4C34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.76.52]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 00:45:45 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 16015 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Jun 2015 22:46:16 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5577516B.9020709@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:103779 Archived-At: Hello, Paul. On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 01:49:47PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > > The abstract principle at work here is that ASCII quotes are > > @dfn{working} characters, whereas the curly quotes are merely > > @dfn{display} characters. > Curved single quotes are also "working" characters, both in Emacs > (master branch) and in Texinfo (latest stable version). They're not, no matter how conventient it would be for your argument for them to be so.... > It's true that not every keyboard can generate them in every Emacs > context with just a single keypress, .... .... largely for this reason. > but that's also true for many ASCII characters. Also untrue, for the large class of keyboards which are based on the Latin alphabet. That's on the sensible principle that "single keypresses" encompass the auxiliary depression of the shift key. There are European keyboard layouts which require the AltGr key for some rarer characters. But there are NO working characters which require a monstrosity such as C-x 8 * ?, (which is a display character to me, but a working character for a Spaniard, who'll have a proper key for it.) > In practice the data entry problem is not that big a deal. It's one extra hassle, one further tedious thing to have to be learnt, one which will bring no exquisite joy to the learner. Using 0x60 and 0x27 as single quotes isn't a big deal either, for that matter. > > I meant change the appearance of your 0x27 apostrophe > It's not my apostrophe. The one on your own machine is, and you're just as capable of changing its appearance as I am of changing my console font. > It's the appearance of U+0027 APOSTROPHE in most environments nowadays. > You may not like its appearance, and I may not like it either, but it's > a waste of our time to reargue this now. The appearance has been > common practice for many years, and Emacs should work well out of the > box in common and standard environments. Emacs should work well out of the box in ALL supported environments. Just as another data point, the standard default Linux console font, default8x16 displays the curly single quotes as inverse question marks. [ .... ] > That's easy enough. Just take lat1-16.psfu and run this shell script: [ .... ] For the umpteenth time, the matter at hand is not the setting up of my personal machine. It's the fate of users of the Linux console in general, of whom I am just one. > > So, it's going to be a pain in the posterior for most, if not all, users > > of Emacs on terminals, > No, it works fine for users of Emacs on terminals in most environments > (gnome-terminal, xterm, etc.). These all run under X. We're in danger here of descending to arguing about what words like "terminal" and "environment" mean. > It works fine even on most Linux consoles, where curved single quotes > display as curved single quotes out of the box. ???? > Ordinary users shouldn't have to fiddle with font files; things just > work. Indeed they shouldn't; indeed they should. I'm glad we can agree on that. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).