From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Emacs Book Vs Emacs Manuals Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 09:47:35 +0200 Message-ID: <20150513074735.GB7600@tuxteam.de> References: <83h9rnp0yy.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3qnl70z.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <837fsfm7gq.fsf@gnu.org> <991d9b3f-e2f4-4977-9e78-99d39b04ede5@default> <53fc8fd4-2a3e-4937-bc17-6bf6d5bfff5a@googlegroups.com> <0d865b33-6751-4958-b61b-e0f2b3298a20@googlegroups.com> <83egmllmf0.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1431503285 4869 80.91.229.3 (13 May 2015 07:48:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 May 2015 07:48:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed May 13 09:48:01 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YsROa-0005bC-TP for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 09:48:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46951 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsROa-0006KT-7E for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 03:48:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50922) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsROO-0006KB-9O for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 03:47:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsRON-0003se-9j for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 May 2015 03:47:48 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:39440 helo=tomasium.tuxteam.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YsROK-0003qH-48; Wed, 13 May 2015 03:47:44 -0400 Original-Received: from tomas by tomasium.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1YsROB-0002Jq-Tt; Wed, 13 May 2015 09:47:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83egmllmf0.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 5.199.139.25 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:104436 Archived-At: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 08:45:39PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: [...] > I would start by typing "i directory TAB", then see "directory > listing" there, and select it. And there, lo and behold, I'd see > this: Really good example you got there, which nicely stresses the strengths and weaknesses of the whole thing. Two notes: 1. I've been using Emacs for quite a while. I'm perhaps atypical in that I learn in leaps and bounds and not very systematically. It took me several years (three? four?) to learn about "i". Before, I used "s". I shouldn't have been allowed to *touch* Emacs without knowing about Info's "i" (see below for some thoughts on that) 2. I enter "i folder TAB" and get no entries. Hmmm. Ad 1: I think an intro should blaze a wide track collecting the indispensable tools to get up and running (and only hinting at alternatives). Which are the "indispensable tools" is very much a matter of taste and of "current fashion": it will vary over users and time. Most user nowadays will be happy to use the (these days) conventional cursor keys for movement (and discover to their delight that C-Left jumps by words, wow!), click on menus and so on. Thus (one variant of) tutorial would *only hint* (with links) at the existence of C-f etc. which are so close to the hearts of the old garde. Heck, I'm an old fart and *even on vi* (which I spell vim) I don't "HJKL" but use the cursor keys (which are more within reach these days as nearly everyone who has still a keyboard is on some kind of netbook). Ad 2: As Emacs is used by a more diverse population, it has to talk a broader language set. Besides, language(s) evolve over time. I know that there's an effort to add synonyms to the index (see? I tried to look up "synonym" in the info manual. No hits ;-) -- but I don't believe that it scales as it is, done by hand by a handful of heroes (no, really, I have a ton of appreciation for this work: Emacs has given me more joy that I'm able to express in a few words) -- one bug report at a time. I think we need new ideas here, therefore I'm really excited that Vaidheeswaran C is taking a try at it. Thanks! Regards - -- tomás -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlVTAZcACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYrmwCeIN51fAqqSoJ/7FyQ4YYd0P/X 3GIAn1lB5a/AnxuxXKSqcFIqU078V42V =2p7g -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----