[proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Randomcoder]

Hi,

Currently, AFAIK when scheduling something in Org-Mode, the timestamp
doesn't have a timezone.

Use-case example: Let's say Carsten Dominik schedules a meeting with
someone, then jumps on a plane and travels to some place that's on a
timezone difference of -/+ 3 hours. He will probably miss the meeting.

I propose one of the following alternatives:

* either all timestamps are considered UTC and they dynamically change
with the timezone of the system where Emacs is running
* timestamps come with timezone so the user can see what time the
meeting was scheduled at.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I welcome any feedback on this
as I'm interested in how other people are solving this sort of problem.

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Eric S Fraga]

On Wednesday, 18 Mar 2015 at 10:13, Randomcoder wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Currently, AFAIK when scheduling something in Org-Mode, the timestamp
> doesn't have a timezone.

[...]

> Thanks for taking the time to read this. I welcome any feedback on this
> as I'm interested in how other people are solving this sort of problem.

Hello Ms Randomcoder,

there is no specific solution unfortunately.  Having spent a year living
and working across time zones, I was unable to find a good
solution.  And, in fact, the problem was compounded by trying to
synchronise org data with Google's calendar and with MS Outlook.  I
eventually simply stopped synchronising and relied on my computer
having the time that was appropriate for where I was at the time.  All
org data were "local" time with a fluid definition of "local".

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.4.1, Org release_8.3beta-820-gd92ef9

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Ken Mankoff]

On 2015-03-18 at 12:33, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> On Wednesday, 18 Mar 2015 at 10:13, Randomcoder wrote:
>> Currently, AFAIK when scheduling something in Org-Mode, the timestamp
>> doesn't have a timezone.
>
> there is no specific solution unfortunately.  Having spent a year living
> and working across time zones, I was unable to find a good
> solution.

I have a solution that works quite well outside of Org. Apple Calendar supports timezones plus a "floating" option.

I use Org for all my floating events - local to the computer and me, whatever TZ we're in. I haven't found a way to put TZ-specific events into Org.

If scheduling a Skype with someone in NZ, I enter it in iCal at the NZ time in the NZ timezone. Org pulls in my iCal events. Then wherever I am when that event happens, I get the alert at the correct time. Most things are local to me, so I use "floating" and stay in Org.

  -k.
  

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Randomcoder]

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 02:09:31PM -0400, Ken Mankoff wrote:
> I have a solution that works quite well outside of Org. Apple Calendar
> supports timezones plus a "floating" option.  I use Org for all my
> floating events - local to the computer and me, whatever TZ we're in. I
> haven't found a way to put TZ-specific events into Org.
> 
> If scheduling a Skype with someone in NZ, I enter it in iCal at the NZ
> time in the NZ timezone. Org pulls in my iCal events. Then wherever I
> am when that event happens, I get the alert at the correct time. Most
> things are local to me, so I use "floating" and stay in Org.

I wrote a silly elisp function that does the conversion for me.  Hah,
yeah ! exactly, I use it for the exact same thing, scheduling an interview
with someone on the other side of the planet.

So for example they ask me 

"Can you provide us with times when you're available for an interview ?"
and I just make a table and let them decide when:

    | time Tokyo         | time Sofia             |
    |--------------------+------------------------|
    | <2015-03-20 18:00> | <2015-03-20 Fri 11:00> |
    | <2015-03-21 14:00> | <2015-03-21 Sat 07:00> |
    | <2015-03-22 14:00> | <2015-03-22 Sun 07:00> |
    | <2015-03-23 14:00> | <2015-03-23 Mon 07:00> |
    | <2015-03-24 14:00> | <2015-03-24 Tue 07:00> |
    #+TBLFM: $1='(concat "<" (org-tz-conv $2 "Asia/Tokyo" "to") ">")

You said above you're using iCal (do you mean, Google Calendar or
Apple Calendar?). I'd be interested in setting this up as well, which one
should I be using ?

At this point in time I'm using Org-Mode's agenda to view events.
Should I try to sync them up with my phone and if so what is the recommended
way to go ?



This is the implementation of org-tz-conv:

    (defun org-tz-conv (stamp tz way)
      (let* (
             (current-tz-offset (shell-command-to-string "date +%z"))
             (stamp1    (concat (replace-regexp-in-string "[<>]" "" stamp) " " current-tz-offset))
             (date-cmd-p0  "TZ=%s date -d \"%s\"")
             (date-cmd-p1  "date --date=\"TZ=\\\"%s\\\" %s\"")
             (date-cmd-p2  " +\"%F %H:%M\"")
             (date-cmd-rendered1  (format date-cmd-p1 tz stamp1 ))
             (date-cmd-from  (concat date-cmd-rendered1 date-cmd-p2))
             (date-cmd-to    (concat (format date-cmd-p0 tz stamp1) date-cmd-p2))
             
             (shell-result-from (shell-command-to-string date-cmd-from ))
             (shell-result-to   (shell-command-to-string date-cmd-to   ))

             (result-from (replace-regexp-in-string "\n" "" shell-result-from) )
             (result-to   (replace-regexp-in-string "\n" "" shell-result-to  ) )
             )
        (message shell-result-from)
        (message shell-result-to)
        (cond ((string-equal way "from") result-from)
              ((string-equal way "to"  ) result-to  ))
        ))

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Ken Mankoff]

On 2015-03-20 at 05:40, Randomcoder <randomcoder1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 02:09:31PM -0400, Ken Mankoff wrote:
>> I have a solution that works quite well outside of Org. Apple
>> Calendar supports timezones plus a "floating" option. I use Org for
>> all my floating events - local to the computer and me, whatever TZ
>> we're in. I haven't found a way to put TZ-specific events into Org.
>
> You said above you're using iCal (do you mean, Google Calendar or
> Apple Calendar?). I'd be interested in setting this up as well, which
> one should I be using ?

I use Apple. There is integration for Apple -> Org, Org -> Apple, Google -> Org, and Org -> Google. 

> At this point in time I'm using Org-Mode's agenda to view events.
> Should I try to sync them up with my phone and if so what is the
> recommended way to go ?

Depends on what you want. You could view everything in MobileOrg. Or export to a calendar and then view that.

  -k.

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[e.fraga]

On Friday, 20 Mar 2015 at 11:40, Randomcoder wrote:

[...]

> At this point in time I'm using Org-Mode's agenda to view events.
> Should I try to sync them up with my phone and if so what is the recommended
> way to go ?

I use MobileOrg on Android to sync between org and Google's calendar.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.4.1, Org release_8.3beta-790-gb719c1.dirty

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[Randomcoder]

Hi Eric,

I've also seen these threads from the archive of the mailing list
discussing about the very same thing. 
In summary it seems that in 2008 Carsten's opinion on this was
that it would add a lot of complexity and it's a pandora's box
about to be open.

In 2014, Nicolas's reply seems a bit more encouraging.

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/93082/focus=93082
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/5145/focus=5145

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 04:33:44PM +0000, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> There is no specific solution unfortunately.  Having spent a year living
> and working across time zones, I was unable to find a good
> solution.  And, in fact, the problem was compounded by trying to
> synchronise org data with Google's calendar and with MS Outlook.  I
> eventually simply stopped synchronising and relied on my computer
> having the time that was appropriate for where I was at the time. All

So would your computer find out the timezone and switch it automatically ?
(IIRC Ubuntu does that by default)

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 04:33:44PM +0000, Eric S Fraga wrote:
> org data were "local" time with a fluid definition of "local".

I'd be interested in knowing a bit more about the "fluid definition".

Re: [proposal] timezone-aware timestamps enhancement

[e.fraga]

On Friday, 20 Mar 2015 at 11:29, Randomcoder wrote:

[...]

> So would your computer find out the timezone and switch it
> automatically ?
> (IIRC Ubuntu does that by default)

No, I would change the time zone manually.

>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 04:33:44PM +0000, Eric S Fraga wrote:
>> org data were "local" time with a fluid definition of "local".
>
> I'd be interested in knowing a bit more about the "fluid definition".

Simply that I would put in the time that would be appropriate for where
I expected to be when the particular event were to take place.

Sometimes it's easier to not let the computers do everything!

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (0xFFFCF67D), Emacs 24.4.1, Org release_8.3beta-790-gb719c1.dirty