From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15478: cc-mode does not obey electric-indent-mode Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 17:32:06 +0000 Message-ID: <20131009173206.GA2610__25375.0766664327$1381340140$gmane$org@acm.acm> References: <20131003094543.GA3211@acm.acm> <83zjqn5cri.fsf@gnu.org> <20131007093859.GA3859@acm.acm> <83hact5aoe.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1381340131 11381 80.91.229.3 (9 Oct 2013 17:35:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2013 17:35:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org To: Josh Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 09 19:35:29 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxfV-0006tQ-AO for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 19:35:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43044 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxfU-0002mt-SF for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:35:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34063) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxfK-0002lp-Gt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:35:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxfF-0006D9-H2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:35:18 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:58157) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxf4-00060p-Ro; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:35:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxf4-0002cr-H6; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:35:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bug-cc-mode@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2013 17:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15478 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,cc-mode X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.138134006010044 (code B ref -1); Wed, 09 Oct 2013 17:35:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Oct 2013 17:34:20 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:38217 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxeN-0002bu-Qs for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:60357) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxeK-0002bm-Js for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxeF-0005iy-HK for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:16 -0400 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:54602) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxeF-0005ip-EN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33802) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxeA-0002dx-E9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxe5-0005gw-E0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:06 -0400 Original-Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:39539) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTxe4-0005ge-UI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 13:34:01 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de (colin.muc.de [193.149.48.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by moderators.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8477E629 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2013 19:33:58 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: (qmail 85025 invoked by uid 3782); 9 Oct 2013 17:33:56 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD95199FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.81.153.250]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 09 Oct 2013 19:33:55 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 3119 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Oct 2013 17:32:06 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:79102 Archived-At: Hi, Josh. On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 02:17:23PM -0700, Josh wrote: > On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 10:04:00PM -0700, Josh wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > > From: Stefan Monnier > > > > > > Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2013 21:10:01 -0400 > > > > > > Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org > > > > > > For people who don't like electric-indent-mode, CC-mode's > > > > > > c-electric-flag sucks just as much. > > > > > Who are they, except for you? Why don't we hear any complaints about > > > > > that, except from you? > > > > c-electric-flag is a variable defined in `cc-engine.el'. > > > > Its value is t > > > > Automatically becomes buffer-local when set. > > > > Documentation: > > > > Not documented as a variable. > > > > Do you hear many complaints about other undocumented variables? > > > Here, the variable need only be accessed through the function below. The > > > emphasis on this variable is only in discussions like this one, not in > > > user facilities. > > Right. And in any case, I meant complaints about the behavior, not > > about the variables/functions that control it. > I know what you meant. The reason I pointed out the fact that that the > variable that supposedly "solved" this is undocumented, that newbies will > not recognize "electric" as pertinent, and all the rest of it is to show > that disabling this behavior is far too arcane and burdensome for newbies. This is getting tiresome. The variable `c-electric-flag', strictly speaking, isn't documented, but the command whose entire purpose is to set it is fully documented in the CC Mode manual (have you read this yet?) in the chapter directed at newbies. Not only is it documented, it is present in the Emacs menu under C/toggle/electric mode, a place newbies are likely to look. I think most of them will be able to guess what "electric mode" means, and if not, they are likely to try it out to see if it helps. > As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- they download a > program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, decide whether they want to > invest time into it." I believe that most such users who dislike this > behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far less > likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to something else. > Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don't know. But I attribute the > fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection bias, > with some who dislike the behavior not complaining because they gave up and > moved on to another editor while still others who dislike it do not > complain because we managed to disable it ourselves. I think you are wrong here. Before the implementation of `c-toggle-electric-state', there were several complaints about the difficulty of turning off electric indentation in CC Mode. Since then, there have been none that I'm aware of, apart from this one. This suggests that users are capable of finding out about this facility and that they find it adequate. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).