From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: CL package serious deficiencies Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:16:53 +0000 Message-ID: <20120207221653.GC17530@acm.acm> References: <87fwemcwlx.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87zkcubbfc.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87vcnibb9t.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <87r4y6bams.fsf@spindle.srvr.nix> <4F3198CE.9000900@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1328653040 23237 80.91.229.3 (7 Feb 2012 22:17:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:17:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: egnarts-ms , Lennart Borgman , Emacs-devel@gnu.org, Nix , Stefan Monnier , Drew Adams To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 07 23:17:18 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RutLf-0003x9-BF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:17:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44195 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RutLe-0004KT-Eu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:17:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41727) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RutLb-0004KJ-He for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:17:12 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RutLa-00024N-AI for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:17:11 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:55151 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RutLZ-00024G-VN for Emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:17:10 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 57890 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Feb 2012 22:17:07 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9557B8E.dip.t-dialin.net [217.85.123.142]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:17:05 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 18508 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Feb 2012 22:16:53 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F3198CE.9000900@dancol.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:148324 Archived-At: Hi, Daniel. On Tue, Feb 07, 2012 at 01:34:06PM -0800, Daniel Colascione wrote: > On 2/7/12 1:23 PM, Nix wrote: > > (FWIW, the *last* time I asked about this, many years ago, I was told > > that runtime use of cl was out of the question because it used too much > > memory. I presume that this argument is obsolete :) ) > I've long been an advocate of dumping cl with Emacs; XEmacs does so > without problems. The CC Mode test suite (in particular, 000tests.el, available from the CC Mode site at SourceForge), uses cl at run time. It's been getting wierd "can't happen" errors for years: some error starts appearing, repeatedly, then after some unrelated change in CC Mode, stops appearing. Then another wierd error starts happening, then stops. This has been going on for years. The current error, which has been happening for ~6 months, is: Testing awk-face-1.awk (fonts) Buffer is read-only: # . This doesn't happen with XEmacs (though other errors do). I believe that the cl files are somehow responsible; Barry Warsaw (who originally wrote 000tests.el) was and is a competent hacker. > CLisms simply result in cleaner, smaller code than one can write using > nothing but elisp primitives. > The latest objection is that dumping CL would Emacs would increase the > size of the printed and bound Emacs Lisp Reference Manual from the > FSF. I find this objection unconvincing because it applies to _any_ new > feature, and I don't think we're against adding new features to Emacs. I'd recommend not changing the policy on CL until it acquires a rigorous test suite. I don't really trust it beyond use at byte-compile time. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).