From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Barry Warsaw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Should undefined behavior be encouraged in Emacs? Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 11:26:52 -0400 Organization: Damn Crazy Followers of the Horn Message-ID: <20111007112652.2d07ffd4@resist.wooz.org> References: <4E89124D.8070405@cs.ucla.edu> <4E895885.5060201@online.de> <87ehyu1qk7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4E89794F.8040706@online.de> <87zkheg8xc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <874nzlsxwf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4E8E0AB4.1050900@online.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=PGP-SHA256; boundary="Sig_/7=GJuYe00kqBoRbhgLVoxCL"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1318001245 12278 80.91.229.12 (7 Oct 2011 15:27:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 15:27:25 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 07 17:27:21 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKU-0007BK-JN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:27:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42783 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKT-00072i-T7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:27:17 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:54411) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKO-00072d-0R for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:27:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKJ-0003ms-KM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:27:11 -0400 Original-Received: from lo.gmane.org ([80.91.229.12]:42408) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKJ-0003mm-8e for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 11:27:07 -0400 Original-Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RCCKI-00075P-Im for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:27:06 +0200 Original-Received: from mail.wooz.org ([216.15.33.194]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:27:06 +0200 Original-Received: from barry by mail.wooz.org with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 07 Oct 2011 17:27:06 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 87 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: mail.wooz.org X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 3.7.9 (GTK+ 2.24.6; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 80.91.229.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:144698 Archived-At: --Sig_/7=GJuYe00kqBoRbhgLVoxCL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Oct 06, 2011, at 10:12 PM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: >Andreas R=C3=B6hler writes: > >> for me transient-mark-mode in connection with a mark set is enough. > >Oh, are we having this discussion again? > >I, like (I'm assuming) all other oldey-timey Emacs users :-), disabled >`transient-mark-mode' the first chance I got. And the reason for that >is that `C-x C-x' activates the region, which makes it impossible to use >that command to jump around in buffers. Which I do constantly. > >If that rather odd overloading of the `C-x C-x' command went away, I >might start using `transient-mark-mode'. I'm positive I qualify for "oldey timey" status, and not just because of the color of what's left of my hair. I've used X/Emacs daily since probably the mid-80's. Back when I was doing a lot of elisp programming, I thought that XEmacs's API for active regions was just about perfect in its simplicity and ease of use, and the UI just felt natural. Translating my usage patterns to Emacs was one of the biggest impediments to switching back to Emacs, which I finally managed to do 3+ years ago. Since I don't do much elisp hacking these days, I can't comment on the APIs anymore, but I do occasionally report bugs in python-mode.el, which is wher= e I think Andreas is coming from. As for the UI, it all feels quite natural th= ese days in Emacs and I'm fairly certain I'm using the defaults. One quick note about C-x C-x and C-space. For several decades now I've used Ken Manheimer's most awesome namedmarks code[1]. With no C-u, these work j= ust like their default cousins (I think, it's been a long time), but with an argument, they allow you to name locations in the buffer. E.g. C-u C-space -> Set named mark: here RET (move somewhere far away) C-u C-x C-x -> Goto mark named (default here) RET jumps you back to the mark named 'here'. Of course, you can have any number of named marks, and both prompts support completion. It's a testament to i= ts elegant simplicity that I don't think this code has been touched in 20 years and still works beautifully. It's a great addition to the core UI, IMO. Notably, going to a named mark does *not* activate the region, which I think makes perfect sense given that I'm often jumping around over several screen fulls. I don't think I could function without namedmarks. -Barry [1] My local copy is (C) 1991 FSF, which looks pretty close to http://wiki.zope.org/klm/namedmarks.el --Sig_/7=GJuYe00kqBoRbhgLVoxCL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJOjxo8AAoJEBJutWOnSwa/sEEP/3TgaVureU3Mzonvvh/EKOkt +68QQrttJJ6mWF0I8rd6TJMIuCB1VhWrO0zEkSI+Id+fldH02WbAgHavkeduD/HP PYn9AfeMr6/trLY+YY8jVM+aq3jzMCnMAfDTqA8jE6oljm1LE22TSVJWvoJw0Cjn 1ZTL/s3b24O524ZMlKaZfvIHYWrZoRwoxBO5Smy+h0XsFXtv1kqFgP9z3kzyejdK p/Jd60+AauDu956BLTmf042Av5SzrNUBgpo9yodaRiRwEoboWLRVG1tcMF34OsBq JOP3+W67Pf1GurxNDedm7BDI0qrIiXD4xPGcNJ4BIdAD9ld5VyBsedYlMFGlgYtj ljnseRwzbysYl4+pyeRLWxitz0LTKaMkOFrLniUytuMiLHV8TBt88u43Fal4jg6O dBHfWARgmaVjHuKXnWhYu8yFyqYHw+YDzNC4WSbYTIhkuzE3bBkNRVpnRgA7GubI Hh8maCrywAimUiHakPcgTAdVLs5lZNw68pbYkxXHeLN379Ozsh2XuIJdPmYuc1av 0fI+OwwI8ffYdJMdK12MrC5475PjWSWQ3CgkWWltYcruvv2rTznjv0c2lbAM6K3J qxFO8K2dZCXnRPUvFS14hmRWn0Zkx63bfNjrPm8BrINa2C2AnbrmFciWNatHJIXT 55ZvUOEk2nWPQL2o7lpp =3dVI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/7=GJuYe00kqBoRbhgLVoxCL--