From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tassilo Horn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:15:50 +0200 Message-ID: <201007162015.50531.tassilo@member.fsf.org> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <201007161927.31648.tassilo@member.fsf.org> <87iq4f8gyh.fsf@telefonica.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279304175 31312 80.91.229.12 (16 Jul 2010 18:16:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:16:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?utf-8?q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 16 20:16:12 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZpSF-0001OP-Dd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 20:16:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34297 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZpSE-0002S9-Cw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:16:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=60894 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZpS2-0002R2-Ks for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:16:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZpS1-00081Z-CP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:15:58 -0400 Original-Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:47598) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZpS1-00081U-6i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:15:57 -0400 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.internal [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1146216F386; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from heartbeat1.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.160]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:15:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:subject:date:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id; s=smtpout; bh=zgjyidz88Z9IsfM5ccj31BUaluQ=; b=bsvVKXRVRbJSRYRQy+fySE2v4nRL5j0dezK2eNdHEAoUflXeqNRUn9UWI1M2Nr/hvBi0k1lxemls8n/eN8jRm4hpnR7EN5bEsunQS0ZgHUNal2iPaJh2d0AAvqjZLOir7diINXwyxH8jd/e1LeYieKEM83jZBrCp8E4dX5vqmgI= X-Sasl-enc: RuES97J3GSj17ybGDKRdhSjrC2BIlQG73bZSrlv6BPV0 1279304152 Original-Received: from thinkpad.localnet (p54AF1F70.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.175.31.112]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1D1A4E9DB7; Fri, 16 Jul 2010 14:15:52 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.35-rc5-git1; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <87iq4f8gyh.fsf@telefonica.net> X-Face: `TY6r/ws=N5uqO1E`M=Sups<}n%T[E^o_?MJj< =?iso-8859-1?q?O4j=265ljV6lU=7DcXU7oftH=26/x=5F=7EK=7B=26zv9=7D=0A=09sB?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=7D5/Ea=5BhU=7BCS=23=3F=3F0=3F=3Fn?=@sX+ft]?{(l?, mp"a`u List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127449 Archived-At: On Friday 16 July 2010 19:38:46 =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > > This heavily depends on your keyboard layout. >=20 > Yes, I'm using a very expensive keyboard just because it has a great > ergonomics for working with Emacs. The price and quality of the keyboard doesn't make a big difference compared to the choice of layout, e.g. QUERTY, Dvorak or Neo. And I think it's a bad idea to choose keybindings so that they are convenient or logical for one single layout. That's the reason for avoiding hjkl movement. Mnemonics are platform/layout independent. > > Similarly, C-k, C-y and M-y have clear mnemonics derived from the > > concepts of killing and yanking. >=20 > Worrying about mnemonics for operations you do hundreds of times per > day is a waste. Not really, but bindings for frequently used commands should be short. And C-w, M-w, C-y, M-y are as short as the CUA bindings. And because they have clear mnemonics, they should be easily perceptible by newbies, too, once they have learned the concepts behind killing and yanking. With CUA (which I have currently switched on for testing) the bindings have no mnemonics anymore, and they are still not what I would expect from a "normal" editor. For example, C-a normally selects the complete contents of a buffer, but in emacs even with CUA it moves point to the beginning of a line. Since that's a much more important operation than selecting all contents, I guess that's ok. But nevertheless, it doesn't match a non-emacs user's expectation. And there are many other bindings in common editors which are short but rarely used, like C-s for saving (goodbye isearch), C-p for printing (goodbye movement), and many more. If we would try to match newbies expectations, we would sacrifice so many short bindings that emacs wouldn't be as effective as it is right now. The standard keybindings in today's editors are the ones they are now mostly because nearly none of them support keychords. Bye, Tassilo