From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Joe Brenner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:08:24 -0700 Message-ID: <201007132008.o6DK8O94068118@kzsu.stanford.edu> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279051717 11857 80.91.229.12 (13 Jul 2010 20:08:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2010 20:08:37 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'=D3scar_Fuentes'?= , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 13 22:08:36 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYlmN-0007yd-T6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:08:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33177 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYlmN-0005MI-5O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:08:35 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=51959 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYlmH-0005MA-H9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:08:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYlmF-0007xw-PA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:08:29 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp4.stanford.edu ([171.67.219.84]:34414 helo=smtp.stanford.edu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYlmF-0007xc-KP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 16:08:27 -0400 Original-Received: from smtp.stanford.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7AEC6CAEE; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from kzsu.stanford.edu (KZSU.Stanford.EDU [171.66.118.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.stanford.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90B59CD11; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from kzsu.stanford.edu (localhost.stanford.edu [127.0.0.1]) by kzsu.stanford.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o6DK8O94068118; Tue, 13 Jul 2010 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doom@kzsu.stanford.edu) In-reply-to: <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> Comments: In-reply-to "Drew Adams" message dated "Mon, 12 Jul 2010 15:03:10 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.2; nmh 1.2; GNU Emacs 24.0.50 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127211 Archived-At: Drew Adams wrote: > > >> Obviously, there is no reason to choose words perversely > > >> (e.g. use "red" when we mean green). > > > > > > Or use "scroll-up" where it means scroll down, or use > > > "split-horizontally" where it splits vertically ;) > > > > Good one. > > Actually no, bad one. > I specifically chose red/green and _not_ up/down, because up from one > vantage point is down from another. _Not_ so for red/green. It is > not perverse to call something "up" which someone else might naturally > think of as down - it depends on the context. > The question of whether to consider scrolling from the point of view > of the view port / window or the point of view of the paper / data > surface / buffer (which is moving?) is as old as the hills. And the > answer sometimes depends on the particular application in a logical > way (think cockpit); otherwise it is arbitrary. I'm sorry, I think you're completely off base here. You're right this issue is as old as the hills, but the actual trouble is that emacs is even older than the hills, and this is a good example of a UI mistake that's grandfathered in. Ted Nelson nailed this one a long time ago. I paraphrase: "Either way makes sense if you think about it, but one makes sense if you don't think about it. Because users are *drivers*." I've had this in my .emacs for a few decades now: ; Un-dyslexicize emacs (global-set-key "\C-x<" 'scroll-right) (global-set-key "\C-x>" 'scroll-left) (global-set-key "\C-x{" 'enlarge-window-horizontally) (global-set-key "\C-x}" 'shrink-window-horizontally) (And I see that "scroll-left" is disabled by default because new users find it confusing... I don't want to come on like a rabid "modernize emacs!" type, but might it not be better to just *fix* what they find confusing about it?)