From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] /srv/bzr/emacs/trunk r99650: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX. Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:01:09 +0000 Message-ID: <20100314190109.GA2424@muc.de> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <83pr371rl2.fsf@gnu.org> <873a03pmgn.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <20100314093329.GA1362@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268592814 25216 80.91.229.12 (14 Mar 2010 18:53:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:53:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Miles Bader , cyd@stupidchicken.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: James Cloos Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 14 19:53:28 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NqswJ-0007zU-J7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:53:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39294 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NqswJ-0006iZ-1m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:53:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NqswE-0006iJ-Od for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:53:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=39675 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NqswD-0006i1-8T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:53:22 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NqswB-0004xj-6b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:53:21 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:3421 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NqswA-0004xR-TW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:53:19 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 4414 invoked by uid 3782); 14 Mar 2010 18:53:17 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E513E9.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.19.233]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:53:15 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 2638 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Mar 2010 19:01:09 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:121960 Archived-At: On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 02:02:40PM -0400, James Cloos wrote: > >>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie writes: > AM> On the right, the scroll bar doesn't get in the way, at least not > AM> very much. > In other words, it is essentially invisible and might as well not exist > at all. A nice narrow, neutral gray or grayish bar has just the right > visibility to provide data w/o distraction. No. It's visible, but not intrusive there. Anyhow, as I said, I run Emacs without a scroll bar. > AM> On the left, it is very close to where you're mostly > AM> inserting/deleting/reading text, > and hence is w/in view and therefore usable. > AM> I think it's based on the assumption that a scroll bar is an > AM> essential part of editing that nobody can bear to be without; that > AM> it'll be getting used so often that nobody could possibly object > AM> to it. I think these assumptions warrant examination, particularly > AM> under Emacs. > The most important use of the scroll bar in a keyboard-controlable app > like Emacs is as a visual reference to the size of the buffer as > compared to the size of the visible window. I would think it's more of a personal thing > That only works when it is near the text. I would think that's a personal thing, too. > Most apps should have their vertical bar on the left in l2r locales and > right in r2l locales. And they should blend into the background except > when you actually want to look at them. Emacs --with-toolkit=athena > does that exceptionally well. Again, it's a competition between being easily visible and cluttering up an important part of your frame. It's a bit like the blinking cursor debate. I think we'd agree, it wouldn't be a bad idea for the scroll bar position to be an option. > James Cloos OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6 -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).