From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Ehud Karni" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel,gmane.emacs.bidi Subject: Re: [emacs-bidi] Mixed L2R and R2L paragraphs and horizontal scroll Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:05:28 +0200 Organization: Mivtach-Simon Insurance agencies Message-ID: <201002012205.o11M5Sci011809@beta.mvs.co.il> References: <83tyu3iu6b.fsf@gnu.org> <201002011400.o11E0jMQ007420@beta.mvs.co.il> <83vdeghfqg.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: ehud@unix.mvs.co.il NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1265061974 13157 80.91.229.12 (1 Feb 2010 22:06:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:06:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-bidi@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 01 23:06:11 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc4PC-0004Uj-VA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:06:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39006 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nc4PC-0007uW-CL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:06:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nc4P2-0007r4-LT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:05:52 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=49370 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nc4P2-0007qn-9o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:05:52 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc4Oy-0007Ky-Ls for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:05:51 -0500 Original-Received: from [193.16.147.12] (port=40812 helo=unix.mvs.co.il) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc4Ou-0007GP-Ic; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:05:45 -0500 Original-Received: from beta.mvs.co.il (beta [10.253.0.3]) by unix.mvs.co.il (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o11M5Xff025542; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:05:34 +0200 Original-Received: from beta.mvs.co.il (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beta.mvs.co.il (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o11M5T6A011812; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:05:29 +0200 Original-Received: (from root@localhost) by beta.mvs.co.il (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id o11M5Sci011809; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:05:28 +0200 In-reply-to: <83vdeghfqg.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:18:31 +0200) X-Mailer: Emacs 21.3.1 rmail (send-msg 1.109) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:120798 gmane.emacs.bidi:497 Archived-At: On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 22:18:31 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > What is a ``non-technical text'', and how is it different from the > other kind? Also, to what kind belong your examples in this message? Non technical text is composed of long sentences of words, mostly in one language (e.g Man page). Technical text may have less words and more tokens and non alphabetic symbols (e.g. script, ls output). > > Consider Example1: a list of items, each line has: name, quantity, > > catalog-id and description. Most of the names are in Latin but some > > are in Hebrew. > > Where is Example1? I don't see it in the message you posted? Did you > talk in general about itemized lists with mixed L2R and R2L text? I talked in general. The various lines begin with Hebrew or Latin. > > In this case there must be an external dictation of paragraph direction. > > There is already a variable to force certain paragraph direction on > all the paragraphs in a buffer. Finer (per-paragraph) control can be > exercised by starting a paragraph with a suitable mark (RLM or LRM) > character. Yes, I just wanted to emphasize that automatic per-paragraph (default?) direction may be very wrong some times. > But what does this have to do with the issue at hand? Nothing to do with scrolling. > > scrolled (23) in a smaller window: > > +-------------------------------+ > > |$ong-description | > > |$NOITPIRCSED-GNO | > > +-------------------------------- > > Why like above and not like below: > > +-------------------------------+ > |$ong-description | > |$RCSED-GNOL-YREV | > +-------------------------------- Because if you choose your way of scrolling, you always see the same part (of different length) - the beginning of the Hebrew text. Suppose the the Hebrew text is very long, twice the window size, then you'll see only the first width-of-screen Hebrew characters, no matter how much scrolling you do. I taught that was one of the reasons for your conclusion of (KJI and not CBA): ez> +---------+---------+-------------------+ ez> |$ijk |abcdefgh$|abcdefghijk | ez> | KJI$|$HGFEDCBA| KJIHGFEDCBA| ez> +---------+---------+-------------------+ > > Example 3: text, mostly in Hebrew but some lines have no Hebrew, > > like arithmetic formulas (Latin + digits + neutrals only) or > > ls output (real recent email I got). > > > > Here we could use either external dictation of RTL direction or > > automatic paragraph direction. In RTL direction the formula may be > > displayed wrongly (if neutral characters are on the sides). When > > automatic paragraph direction is used, short lines may be too far > > apart. > > A real example will help here. Here is a real example (upper case = Hebrew) PUT THE FILES IN /dir1/sdr2/sdr3 AND I WILL TAKE THEM This will appear as (think of 160 character wide text screen): NI SELIF EHT TUP /dir1/sdr2/sdr3 MEHT EKAT LLIW I DNA > > In this case, something like `right-margin-goal-column' as suggested > > by RMS is a good solution. > > The problem with such a ``rigid scrolling'' is that it must affect L2R > lines as well, for consistency. In the current display engine, we > don't allow scrolling to the right (e.g., with C-x >) once column zero > is visible. With rigid scrolling, we will need to allow it. I can always split the Emacs window horizontally and change it size until I have the best fit, It just takes more work. Ehud. -- Ehud Karni Tel: +972-3-7966-561 /"\ Mivtach - Simon Fax: +972-3-7976-561 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Insurance agencies (USA) voice mail and X Against HTML Mail http://www.mvs.co.il FAX: 1-815-5509341 / \ GnuPG: 98EA398D Better Safe Than Sorry