From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Ehud Karni" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bidi,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Mixed L2R and R2L paragraphs and horizontal scroll Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:00:45 +0200 Organization: Mivtach-Simon Insurance agencies Message-ID: <201002011400.o11E0jMQ007420@beta.mvs.co.il> References: <83tyu3iu6b.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: ehud@unix.mvs.co.il NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1265033167 28029 80.91.229.12 (1 Feb 2010 14:06:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 14:06:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-bidi@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 01 15:06:03 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbwue-00019d-TS for gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:06:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44198 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nbwue-0007g6-DD for gnu-emacs-bidi@m.gmane.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:06:00 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Nbwpw-00026C-FE for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:01:08 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58629 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Nbwpv-00025P-QB for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:01:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbwpq-0006c2-HP for emacs-bidi@gnu.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:01:07 -0500 Original-Received: from [193.16.147.12] (port=39083 helo=unix.mvs.co.il) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbwpo-0006az-6S; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:01:02 -0500 Original-Received: from beta.mvs.co.il (beta [10.253.0.3]) by unix.mvs.co.il (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id o11E0jiw019245; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:00:46 +0200 Original-Received: from beta.mvs.co.il (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beta.mvs.co.il (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id o11E0juf007451; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:00:45 +0200 Original-Received: (from root@localhost) by beta.mvs.co.il (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id o11E0jMQ007420; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:00:45 +0200 In-reply-to: <83tyu3iu6b.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:44:28 +0200) X-Mailer: Emacs 21.3.1 rmail (send-msg 1.109) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-bidi@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Discussion of Emacs support for multi-directional text." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-bidi-bounces+gnu-emacs-bidi=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bidi:489 gmane.emacs.devel:120778 Archived-At: On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 15:44:28 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Here's a peculiar design decision that needs to be made for the bidi > display: how to display horizontally scrolled lines in a buffer with > mixed L2R and R2L paragraphs. > > Let me start with an example of 2 single-line paragraphs (the frame > around the text shows the window borders): > > +---------------------------------------+ > |abcdefghijk | > | KJIHGFEDCBA| > | | > +---------------------------------------+ [sniped] Eli's final conclusion for scrolled text is: > +---------+---------+-------------------+ > |$ijk |abcdefgh$|abcdefghijk | > | KJI$|$HGFEDCBA| KJIHGFEDCBA| > | | | | > +---------+---------+-------------------+ I agree with Eli's decision, but it applies only to non-technical text. Consider Example1: a list of items, each line has: name, quantity, catalog-id and description. Most of the names are in Latin but some are in Hebrew. In this case there must be an external dictation of paragraph direction. Example 2: same list as above, all the names are in Latin, the description is very long, some of the descriptions are in Hebrew. +----------------------------------------+ |name1 1234 catag1 very-long-description | |name2 1234 catag2 NOITPIRCSED-GNOL-YREV | +----------------------------------------+ and in a smaller window: +-------------------------------+ |name1 1234 catag1 very-long-de$| |name2 1234 catag2 ED-GNOL-YREV$| +-------------------------------+ scrolled (5) in a smaller window: +-------------------------------+ |$1234 catag1 very-long-descrip$| |$1234 catag2 PIRCSED-GNOL-YREV$| +-------------------------------- scrolled (23) in a smaller window: +-------------------------------+ |$ong-description | |$NOITPIRCSED-GNO | +-------------------------------- Example 3: text, mostly in Hebrew but some lines have no Hebrew, like arithmetic formulas (Latin + digits + neutrals only) or ls output (real recent email I got). Here we could use either external dictation of RTL direction or automatic paragraph direction. In RTL direction the formula may be displayed wrongly (if neutral characters are on the sides). When automatic paragraph direction is used, short lines may be too far apart. In this case, something like `right-margin-goal-column' as suggested by RMS is a good solution. Ehud. -- Ehud Karni Tel: +972-3-7966-561 /"\ Mivtach - Simon Fax: +972-3-7976-561 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Insurance agencies (USA) voice mail and X Against HTML Mail http://www.mvs.co.il FAX: 1-815-5509341 / \ GnuPG: 98EA398D Better Safe Than Sorry