From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reopen bug 535: Problem with highlit regions on Linux virtual terminal Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:13:42 +0000 Message-ID: <20090408081342.GA1066@muc.de> References: <20090405230524.GB6124@muc.de> <20090406090321.GA1645@muc.de> <20090407205509.GA3452@muc.de> <87y6ubhfmz.fsf@xemacs.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1239178466 16440 80.91.229.12 (8 Apr 2009 08:14:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:14:26 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Miles Bader , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 08 10:15:45 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LrSwe-00028H-Qx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:15:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37553 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LrSvG-0000Rt-FU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:14:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LrSvB-0000Ro-Se for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:14:09 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LrSv7-0000Ra-4X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:14:09 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=54052 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LrSv7-0000RX-0a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:14:05 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:3006 helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LrSv6-0006Y7-G2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 04:14:04 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 99041 invoked by uid 3782); 8 Apr 2009 08:14:02 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E5372E.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.55.46]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:14:01 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 2129 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Apr 2009 08:13:42 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y6ubhfmz.fsf@xemacs.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:110145 Archived-At: Hi, Stephen! On Wed, Apr 08, 2009 at 02:35:16PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > The cons in the marked line is of the mark and the variable > > `mark-active'. This variable doesn't have a coherent definition, > > but it causes the region to be highlit. It is "defined" as > > Non-nil means the mark and region are currently active in this > > buffer. > > As I have pointed out before, this is Humpty Dumpty language, > Not at all. Active regions and the terminology go back twenty years > or more. I don't doubt this, but it has no bearing on the matter. > If the mark is non-nil, then the region exists. The region may be > active, .... What is the activity that this region does? Does the region delete a block of characters? Does the region jump to the start of the next defun? Supposing you have a geologist inside a dead volcano, examining it, measuring it, chipping bits out of it. You would call this an "active volcano", would you? > ...., in which case operations on the region will succeed, or inactive, > when such operations will fail.[1] This is a misuse of the word "active", just as confusing as talking about "protecting" a copyright work rather than "restricting" it. In any sentence with a verb of activity, "the region" is always in the object position, never the subject position. "Active" is the wrong word. Possibly "Reactive" would be a suitable one - a "reactive region" being one which reacts to commands directed at it. > In transient-mark-mode, it is possible for the region to be inactive. > Outside of transient- mark-mode, the region is always active. (Or > something like that, that's how zmacs-regions works in XEmacs, > transient-mark-mode has some tiny differences that I never understood > very well.) > It sounds to me like there's a bug in desktop.el[2], and maybe a lack of > documentation of active regions. But the term is well-defined. "Active region" is not well defined, which is what caused the bug in desktop. In particular, it is ill defined whilst transient-mark-mode is not enabled. Because "active" is here a purely conventional label, disconnected from its normal semantics, hackers get confused as to what they really mean by it. Two competing definitions here are "highlit" and "reacts to region commands"; one hacker understood the former meaning, the other the latter. I think that desktop needs to record whether a region is highlit. Or something like that. Do you have definitions of (as contrasted to a discussion around) "active region" and "active mark" that you could contribute to the Emacs manual? > Footnotes: > [2] I guess, as you say, it should record and check for > transient-mark-mode before going ahead and highlighting regions. > Personally, I would prefer desktop to have an option such that mark > status is always reset across sessions. Yes. Maybe. Perhaps.... transient-mark-mode is not simple. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).