Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:18:59 +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG <bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> wrote:
> Because naturally i'm not patient, i cannot read the tutorials for
> long time on anchor to chair. Is there somebody like me? If so, how do
> you become to the power user on Emacs? Without reading Emacs tutorials
> or Emacs howto.
>
> Nevetheless, i cannot give up Emacs study. Really i like Emacs for
> now. Can you please help me about that? Without fall behind, i wish to
> stand up line of power users after about 3 months. Please comments!

I just took my own pace and rhythm.  Emacs is a huge program, so it is
pretty normal to feel overwhelmed by its size and complexity.  I think
it is safe to assume that nobody can learn _everything_ about Emacs in
less than 3 months, but do not let this deter you from trying to use
Emacs and learn more about it.

You can start with small editing tasks, i.e. by setting Emacs as your
editor for email messages.  I initially had my Emacs configured as the
editor for mutt(1).  Starting a new Emacs instance for every email
message seemed a bit slowish, but it also provided me with a safe-belt:
when I did something stupid inside Emacs, I could save the message or
kill the buffer, and restart the email editor.  This way I wouldn't feel
afraid to try new things and commands.

Using Emacs for editing my email messages was a pretty big step, because
I usually post 10-50 new messages every day and I spend a fair amount of
time inside my mail reader.  But `forcing' myself to use Emacs for this
sort of work made me realize that I needed to learn more things about
the editor, to become more effective in my email editing tasks.  So I
did.

Every time I learned of a new Emacs trick, I tried to apply it to my
everyday email editing sessions.  I didn't read the _entire_ Emacs
tutorial in one day.  I didn't read the entire manual in one day either.
But I did read parts of the tutorial and the manual very often.  I spent
small chunks of time, and let them accumulate over time to what must be
now several hundred of hours of manual reading.

The important thing to realize is that you don't have to read the
*entire* manual in one go.  Learn how to look things up in the index of
the manual, become acquainted with `info-mode' and how to navigate the
manual by using keys you are familiar with, and let experience build up
over time.

HTH,
Giorgos

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes:

> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:18:59 +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG <bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> wrote:
>> Because naturally i'm not patient, i cannot read the tutorials for
>> long time on anchor to chair. Is there somebody like me? If so, how do
>> you become to the power user on Emacs? Without reading Emacs tutorials
>> or Emacs howto.
>>
>> Nevetheless, i cannot give up Emacs study. Really i like Emacs for
>> now. Can you please help me about that? Without fall behind, i wish to
>> stand up line of power users after about 3 months. Please comments!
>
> I just took my own pace and rhythm.  Emacs is a huge program, so it is
> pretty normal to feel overwhelmed by its size and complexity.  I think
> it is safe to assume that nobody can learn _everything_ about Emacs in
> less than 3 months, but do not let this deter you from trying to use
> Emacs and learn more about it.
>
> You can start with small editing tasks, i.e. by setting Emacs as your
> editor for email messages.  I initially had my Emacs configured as the
> editor for mutt(1).  Starting a new Emacs instance for every email
> message seemed a bit slowish, but it also provided me with a safe-belt:
> when I did something stupid inside Emacs, I could save the message or
> kill the buffer, and restart the email editor.  This way I wouldn't feel
> afraid to try new things and commands.
>
> Using Emacs for editing my email messages was a pretty big step, because
> I usually post 10-50 new messages every day and I spend a fair amount of
> time inside my mail reader.  But `forcing' myself to use Emacs for this
> sort of work made me realize that I needed to learn more things about
> the editor, to become more effective in my email editing tasks.  So I
> did.
>
> Every time I learned of a new Emacs trick, I tried to apply it to my
> everyday email editing sessions.  I didn't read the _entire_ Emacs
> tutorial in one day.  I didn't read the entire manual in one day either.
> But I did read parts of the tutorial and the manual very often.  I spent
> small chunks of time, and let them accumulate over time to what must be
> now several hundred of hours of manual reading.
>
> The important thing to realize is that you don't have to read the
> *entire* manual in one go.  Learn how to look things up in the index of
> the manual, become acquainted with `info-mode' and how to navigate the
> manual by using keys you are familiar with, and let experience build up
> over time.
>
> HTH,
> Giorgos

Giorgos, i saw you at FreeBSD Project's mailing lists, nice to meet you!
Carefully i read your message from mail header (by t) to last
signature. Really you would be my role model as an Emacs user. Because i
like your posting style (bottom posting) and i like your posting route
(via newsgroup) and you are using BSD-like UNIX which is my favorite OS
currently. 

Your words give me some courage i can study Emacs over a boundary of
time continually. After read your message, i decided to start Emacs
study from handling Gnus itself. Thank you so much, indeed.
  
Sincerely,
  
-- 
Byung-Hee HWANG, KNU 
∑ WWW: http://izb.knu.ac.kr/~bh/

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[prad]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:32:24 +0200
Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:

> Using Emacs for editing my email messages was a pretty big step
>
hi giorgos!
nice to see you on this list too!

i tried using emacs for my email messages too, but found things slow
and awkward compared to sylpheed, but i think i'll give it another try
after reading what you wrote. there are certain undeniable advantages
to being able to to so many tasks from just one program!!

i've found the big think to learning emacs is utilization. if you keep
doing things with it, the stuff becomes second nature. therefore, i
found it best to learn specific things to do specific things and keep
practising those tasks. every couple of weeks you can add on something
new to learn and gradually you'll acquire a fairly large repertoire.

emacs is like life. you don't do it all at once, but you become
familiar and skilled with doing certain things at certain times when
you need to.

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 01:32:38 +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG <bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> wrote:
> Giorgos, i saw you at FreeBSD Project's mailing lists, nice to meet
> you!  Carefully i read your message from mail header (by t) to last
> signature.

Hey, this is wonderful.  So you are not only a fellow Emacs user, but
also a BSD fan too.  That's so nice ;)

> Thank you so much, indeed.

You are welcome!

Cheers,
Giorgos

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 10:25:54 -0700, prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 17:32:24 +0200
> Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
>> Using Emacs for editing my email messages was a pretty big step

> hi giorgos!
> nice to see you on this list too!

I must be getting really old.  I see familiar names all over the place!

Nice to see you here too :)

I am using the newsgroup instead of the mailing list, but having a
bidirectional gateway helps a lot.

Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials

[prad]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:16:54 +0200
Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:

> I am using the newsgroup instead of the mailing list, but having a
> bidirectional gateway helps a lot.
>
ok so i presume you are using emacs for the newsgroup?
i'm going to try this, once i find out how to get news through our
cable company - when i try news in emacs, i get unable to open
nntp:news so i presume our cable company doesn't offer it.

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

News server access from Gnus [was: Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials]

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:36:15 -0700, prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:16:54 +0200
> Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
>> I am using the newsgroup instead of the mailing list, but having a
>> bidirectional gateway helps a lot.
>
> ok so i presume you are using emacs for the newsgroup?  i'm going to
> try this, once i find out how to get news through our cable company -
> when i try news in emacs, i get unable to open nntp:news so i presume
> our cable company doesn't offer it.

I am using Gnus both for email and Usenet access.  My email messages
arrive through fetchmail to `~/Mailbox' where Gnus picks them up from
and filters them to nnml:* folders through an `nnmail-split-fancy' list
of patterns.

For Usenet access, I pull a small number of groups through a free NNTP
server (news.sunsite.dk).  It requires NNTP authentication but anyone is
free to register for NNTP access.

If your ISP is not actively blocking NNTP access to other sources, you
can always register to sunsite.dk and then configure Gnus to use it as
one of the message sources.  My own setup is:

    (setq nntp-authinfo-function 'nntp-send-authinfo)
    (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunsite.dk"))
    (setq gnus-message-archive-group "nnml:posted")

For more details for the news server I am using, please take a minute or
two to read the instructions at `http://dotsrc.org/usenet/' and, more
importantly, the rules of usage at `http://dotsrc.org/usenet/policy/'.

There are also other public, freely available servers you can use for
news access, like:

  * Gmane.  A bi-directional gateway from many mailing lists to Usenet
    style groups and vice versa.  See `http://gmane.org/post.php'.

  * Motzarella.  A private project providing free access to text-only
    Usenet News.  See `http://news.motzarella.org/'.

I'm sure there are several others that I am missing.  If you find any
and you use them with satisfactory results for some time, please let me
know, so I can add them to the list of public news servers I recommend
to anyone who asks :-)

Re: News server access from Gnus [was: Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials]

[prad]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:30:27 +0200
Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:

> If you find any
> and you use them with satisfactory results for some time, please let
> me know, so I can add them to the list of public news servers I
> recommend to anyone who asks :-)
>
i will do so. thanks for all the info.
i'll reinvestigate mail with emacs and explore usenet with as well.
there should be a definite advantage of doing both these things through
one program!

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Re: News server access from Gnus [was: Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials]

[Byung-Hee HWANG]

Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> writes:

> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 13:36:15 -0700, prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:16:54 +0200
>> Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
>>> I am using the newsgroup instead of the mailing list, but having a
>>> bidirectional gateway helps a lot.
>>
>> ok so i presume you are using emacs for the newsgroup?  i'm going to
>> try this, once i find out how to get news through our cable company -
>> when i try news in emacs, i get unable to open nntp:news so i presume
>> our cable company doesn't offer it.
>
> I am using Gnus both for email and Usenet access.  My email messages
> arrive through fetchmail to `~/Mailbox' where Gnus picks them up from
> and filters them to nnml:* folders through an `nnmail-split-fancy' list
> of patterns.
>
> For Usenet access, I pull a small number of groups through a free NNTP
> server (news.sunsite.dk).  It requires NNTP authentication but anyone is
> free to register for NNTP access.
>
> If your ISP is not actively blocking NNTP access to other sources, you
> can always register to sunsite.dk and then configure Gnus to use it as
> one of the message sources.  My own setup is:
>
>     (setq nntp-authinfo-function 'nntp-send-authinfo)
>     (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.sunsite.dk"))
>     (setq gnus-message-archive-group "nnml:posted")
>
> For more details for the news server I am using, please take a minute or
> two to read the instructions at `http://dotsrc.org/usenet/' and, more
> importantly, the rules of usage at `http://dotsrc.org/usenet/policy/'.
>
> There are also other public, freely available servers you can use for
> news access, like:
>
>   * Gmane.  A bi-directional gateway from many mailing lists to Usenet
>     style groups and vice versa.  See `http://gmane.org/post.php'.
>
>   * Motzarella.  A private project providing free access to text-only
>     Usenet News.  See `http://news.motzarella.org/'.
>
> I'm sure there are several others that I am missing.  If you find any
> and you use them with satisfactory results for some time, please let me
> know, so I can add them to the list of public news servers I recommend
> to anyone who asks :-)
>

All your words is valuable, so i couldn't snip any words. Tonight i'll
try to connect news.sunsite.dk with Gnus. Unfortunately, here in Korea
there is no public news server. Your this message is really good to
me. After all, i'll feel the great power of open source through this big
network!

Sincerely,
  
-- 
Byung-Hee HWANG, KNU 
∑ WWW: http://izb.knu.ac.kr/~bh/

Re: News server access from Gnus [was: Re: [OT] Reading Emacs Tutorials]

[prad]

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:30:27 +0200
Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:

> If your ISP is not actively blocking NNTP access to other sources, you
> can always register to sunsite.dk
>
we do have news i found out from our isp, but it doesn't offer much so
i've setup on sunsite.dk - in fact, i'm replying through the newsgroup
instead of the maillist. i'll give emacs gnus a try later this week.

btw, motzeralla looks good too though i couldn't find this emacs
newsgroup on it.

the reason i posted this here instead of sending it privately is that
i'm trying to figure out what the advantages are of accessing things
through usenet vs email and would appreciate input on this from anyone.

the main ones i can see is that usenet works rather like an imap system
so that you aren't actually downloading everything and that it is
easier to search in posts which you may not have on your machine
anymore.

any thoughts on this for this list specifically perhaps?

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Re: News server access from Gnus

[Sean Sieger]

prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> writes:

    On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:30:27 +0200
    Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:

    > If your ISP is not actively blocking NNTP access to other sources, you
    > can always register to sunsite.dk
    >
    we do have news i found out from our isp, but it doesn't offer much so
    i've setup on sunsite.dk - in fact, i'm replying through the newsgroup
    instead of the maillist. i'll give emacs gnus a try later this week.

    btw, motzeralla looks good too though i couldn't find this emacs
    newsgroup on it.

    the reason i posted this here instead of sending it privately is that
    i'm trying to figure out what the advantages are of accessing things
    through usenet vs email and would appreciate input on this from anyone.

    the main ones i can see is that usenet works rather like an imap system
    so that you aren't actually downloading everything and that it is
    easier to search in posts which you may not have on your machine
    anymore.

    any thoughts on this for this list specifically perhaps?

Prad, I have (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org")) in my
.emacs (I don't use a .gnus.el anymore, just one more file to back up).
And the combination of Gnus and Gmane ... I don't know, is a powerful
one to my way of thinking.

At any point, I can subscribe to most any list that I have ever wanted
to and had at my fingertips, the contents of the archive to do C-s and
C-r on to my hearts content.  And really learn something let alone find
answers to questions that have been asked a lot of times.  I just spent
last weekend reading the Cedet archive.  The Python thread alone is, for
example a model of how to contribute a language to Cedet.

I'll tell you, I have unscribed to groups only to resubscribe and have
the server dump all that mail on me so that I may peruse it again and
again.

It's not necessary to do things like this.  There are many more reasons
to hook up Gnus to a newsserver.

Re: News server access from Gnus

[Michael Ekstrand]

prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> writes:
> On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 23:30:27 +0200
> Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
>> If your ISP is not actively blocking NNTP access to other sources, you
>> can always register to sunsite.dk
>>
> we do have news i found out from our isp, but it doesn't offer much so
> i've setup on sunsite.dk - in fact, i'm replying through the newsgroup
> instead of the maillist. i'll give emacs gnus a try later this week.
>
> btw, motzeralla looks good too though i couldn't find this emacs
> newsgroup on it.

aioe.org carries the gnu.* hierarchy.

> the reason i posted this here instead of sending it privately is that
> i'm trying to figure out what the advantages are of accessing things
> through usenet vs email and would appreciate input on this from
> anyone.

I pull anything I can via usenet (I have a leafnode server that pulls
from aioe.org and gmane, and then access anything possible through
that).  Then the server manages expiry for me :).  Also, it makes using
Gnus a little more fluid, as it is its native habitat.  Further, it
lowers the mail load and the time to download and split messages (I use
POP3 to receive mail) if all possible mass mailings go through NNTP.

- Michael

-- 
mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type.

Re: News server access from Gnus

[prad]

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:10:12 -0400
Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@gmail.com> wrote:

> Prad, I have (setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org")) in my
> .emacs (I don't use a .gnus.el anymore, just one more file to back
> up). And the combination of Gnus and Gmane ... I don't know, is a
> powerful one to my way of thinking.
> 
ok i'm trying this.

> At any point, I can subscribe to most any list that I have ever wanted
> to and had at my fingertips,
>
however, i'm only seeing these groups:
       *: alt.test 
       *: alt.config 
       *: news.announce.newusers 
       *: news.groups.questions 
       *: gnu.emacs.gnus 
       6: nndoc+gnus-help:gnus-help 

in the last item there is a thread:
Where are all the groups, then?

following the instructions there i tried to revive the zombie groups
but only got:
 Z     1: gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.de.dortmund (m)
 Z     1: gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.de.duesseldorf (m)
 Z    11: gmane.comp.video.tuxbox.scm (m)
 Z     6: gmane.linux.drivers.otus.devel (m)
 Z     4: gmane.org.user-groups.breds.talks (m)

now i'm looking through the gnus info to figure out what's going on.


> the contents of the archive to do C-s and
> C-r on to my hearts content.
>
this will search the article contents while you are in the headers
buffer? i could only search the titles.

> And really learn something let alone
> find answers to questions that have been asked a lot of times.
>
this sounds great from what you and michael have written - once i can
get some newsgroups that is :D

> It's not necessary to do things like this.  There are many more
> reasons to hook up Gnus to a newsserver.
> 
i'm using claws-mail as a newsreader right now and it's pretty good. i
have a feeling gnus is going to be much better once i learn to use it.
i found the search on claws-mail rather slow in comparison to going to
the mail list archives with a browser and searching there.

thank you sean and michael for explaining the benefits. i'll keep at it.


-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Re: News server access from Gnus

[Sean Sieger]

prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> writes:

    however, i'm only seeing these groups:
           *: alt.test 
           *: alt.config 
           *: news.announce.newusers 
           *: news.groups.questions 
           *: gnu.emacs.gnus 
           6: nndoc+gnus-help:gnus-help 

    in the last item there is a thread:
    Where are all the groups, then?

In the *Group* buffer, do `A A'.  It sounds like you need to read a Gnus
tutorial.

    > the contents of the archive to do C-s and
    > C-r on to my hearts content.
    >
    this will search the article contents while you are in the headers
    buffer? i could only search the titles.

Poster's names and subject lines, right?  Often I do that just to find
answers to questions I have asked and forgotten the answers to.
Sometimes I use the two to find the name of a poster that I remember
saying a certain something.  And it's just a great way to browse
archives from the application that I live in---everything else bugs me,
including browsers, but when in Rome ...

    thank you sean and michael for explaining the benefits. i'll keep at it.

You're welcome.  Sorry I cannot be of more help; Gnus is pretty big and
I use it for such a comparatively small purpose.  It does so much and
what I have it do for me is so narrow but so perfect.

Re: News server access from Gnus

[prad]

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 09:23:29 -0400
Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the *Group* buffer, do `A A'.  It sounds like you need to read a
> Gnus tutorial.
> 
ya i started working with one right after posting this. i found i could
get stuff from gmane with B (foreign) - didn't realize that how the
terminology went.

> You're welcome.  Sorry I cannot be of more help
>
not at all! you've been a big help and i'm discovering things as i
work through gnus. still using claws-mail, but working it with gnus in
parallel these days - pretty soon it'll be all gnus! 

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's

Re: News server access from Gnus

[Sean Sieger]

prad <prad@towardsfreedom.com> writes:

    ya i started working with one right after posting this. i found i could
    get stuff from gmane with B (foreign) - didn't realize that how the
    terminology went.

I've lost track of what you are using, but if you have,

(setq gnus-select-method '(nntp "news.gmane.org"))

in your .gnus.el (or .emacs) you shouldn't be subscribing to news
through Gmane with `B', but simply `U'.  Maybe you should have a look at
~/.newsrc (early on, I used to just throw mine out) and then, armed with
a tutorial, start over.

Re: News server access from Gnus

[prad]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:39:14 -0400
Sean Sieger <sean.sieger@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe you should have a look at
> ~/.newsrc (early on, I used to just throw mine out) and then, armed
> with a tutorial, start over.
>
i'm doing so and am fine.
thx for all your suggestions.
next time i post here, it'll be from emacs!!

-- 
In friendship,
prad

                                      ... with you on your journey
Towards Freedom
http://www.towardsfreedom.com (website)
Information, Inspiration, Imagination - truly a site for soaring I's