From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Release plans Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:18:19 +0000 Message-ID: <20080815141819.GB4781@muc.de> References: <20080813092057.GA3010@muc.de> <20080814083817.GA2593@muc.de> <877iak7xfp.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <873al79akr.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <20080814103040.GB2593@muc.de> <87y72z7t3c.fsf@skyscraper.fehenstaub.lan> <20080814123917.GC2593@muc.de> <87r68rh3xj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1218809787 30885 80.91.229.12 (15 Aug 2008 14:16:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: ams@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, Johannes Weiner , rms@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 15 16:17:19 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KU07A-0001Pk-0s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:17:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60949 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KU06D-00075m-AI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:16:17 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KU069-00075h-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:16:13 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KU067-00075V-T2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:16:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55713 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KU067-00075N-KS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:16:11 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:1950 helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KU066-000265-GK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:16:10 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 43330 invoked by uid 3782); 15 Aug 2008 14:16:08 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E501E4.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.1.228]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:15:59 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 7412 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Aug 2008 14:18:19 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87r68rh3xj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:102490 Archived-At: Hello, Stephen! On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 03:00:56AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > The loadability of modules into the kernel has effects on the whole > > free software community. > Yeah, it forces free people to make free choices. This is a good > thing. A bit like the availability of guns in a community does. > > The facility you want would allow people, in effect, to make > > proprietary extensions to Emacs. > That's FUD. According to the FSF legal staff, it is illegal to > distribute non-GPLv3 modules intended for linking to Emacs. Are you sure? OK, yes you are. Any chance of a reference? Are you also sure this applies to external libraries interacting over a clean thin narrow openly specified interface, as contrasted to Elisp libraries which burrow into the heart of Emacs? > This restriction on dynamic loading doesn't change the legal status; it > just makes it cheaper for the FSF to fight would-be violators and wake > up those people who just don't bother to think about whether their > distributions are violations. > As Richard says, it's appropriate that the defenders of freedom pay an > extra cost to show they value freedom. Emacs should get dynamically > loadable modules. The kernel's strategy for require'ing GPL would work > here, too. > > We could end up with a firm like Linspire saying "our version of > > Emacs is superior because it can access files over the > X> protocol, > It might cost the FSF to fight that, but they'd win. Don't defend > freedom with FUD. Hey, just because I'm mistaken (if I am) doesn't make me a fudder. > If they can't win, then you could distribute Emacs as a .o with > appropriate modules and have the user do the linking to the same > effect. If the proprietary module is that attractive, you can bet > people would do it. > > There are other choices. You could, for example, write a > > module-loading facility yourself, and thus distribute your own Emacs > > fork. You'ld not make yourself popular though, any more than the > > Lucid Emacs crowd did a long time ago. > I resemble that remark, although I wasn't there at the time. Is it > really worth offending those of us who choose to work on XEmacs when > the cases are not parallel at all? Sincere topologies. Offense wasn't intended, it was just an ill considered throw away comparison. > The module-loading facility has long been available for both Emacs (as > 3rd party patches, sorry, no URL offhand; maybe from the same source as > XEmacs/CHISE at Kyoto U?) and XEmacs (standard since 21.4). I didn't know that either. I looked in the two canonical places on my XEmacs 21.4.17, but didn't find it. Any chance of a hint to type at C-h f? -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).