From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Release plans Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:12:12 +0000 Message-ID: <20080802171212.GA2138@muc.de> References: <570553.73339.qm@web95014.mail.in2.yahoo.com> <20080731093022.GB2886@muc.de> <20080801153128.GB13919@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1217697117 12198 80.91.229.12 (2 Aug 2008 17:11:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:11:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: dhruva@ymail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard M Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 02 19:12:47 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KPKes-0004us-EA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 19:12:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55292 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KPKdx-0005Yp-HN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:11:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KPKdV-0004yz-FR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:11:21 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KPKdU-0004xB-8A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:11:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=37903 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KPKdU-0004wi-0O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:11:20 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:1451 helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KPKdT-0007bk-9Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:11:19 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 49892 invoked by uid 3782); 2 Aug 2008 17:11:17 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E52472.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.36.114]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sat, 02 Aug 2008 19:11:14 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 2733 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Aug 2008 17:12:12 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:101960 Archived-At: 'Afternoon, Richard! On Sat, Aug 02, 2008 at 01:12:10AM -0400, Richard M Stallman wrote: > > Have you seen any cases where that eventually led a person to > > switch from proprietary software to free software? > Well, that's not a binary thing. Seeing Emacs has caused people to > use free software more, and to use more free software. Many > projects I've been on have run on a Windows or Unix company > network, but have used GCC, GNU Make, bash, and friends to build > the product. I've introduced quite a few people to Emacs, the odd > one or two to GAWK, ...., and they're probably still using them. > One or two are probably using GNU/Linux on their home PCs, too. > More use of some free programs is a kind of partial success that falls > short of our goal. All else being equal, it is better if Windows and Unix > users compile with GCC than if they compile with a proprietary compiler. > But that isn't our goal, it just gets part way there. Borrowing notions from chess, you're talking about winning by direct attack, possibly with brilliant sacrifices along the way, while I see things more as a positional game, accumulating small advantages, manoevring against enemy weaknesses. You're Mikhail Tal, I'm José Capablanca. ;-) The local administrations in Munich (where I use to live) and Vienna are converting to G/L (which you know already). Gcc/GNU Make/bash and friends are well established for embedded systems development (where I work). Drip, drip, drip, free software is steadily establishing itself. Ten years ago, if you bought a PC, it would have had MS-Windows installed on it, full stop. Now, if you shop around, you can find PC's with preinstalled GNU/Linux. Soon, hopefully, you'll be getting asked what OS (if any) you want on your new PC, and sometime after that (five, ten years from now?) it'll have free software installed as a matter of course, with proprietary alternatives available at extra cost. > That is why I asked if you have ever seen such cases lead to real > success: a person liberated from proprietary software? Myself, perhaps? The real liberation is in the becoming aware of what proprietary software is and does, and having the confidence to avoid it. Funnily enough, that is more difficult in a Unix environment, because the software there works pretty well in general (even the bits (like ksh) which aren't free). With Windows, so much of the software is so icky that you can't help but feel the itch to fix it - but of course you can't. Show mutt to somebody who emails with Lotus Notes, and you can almost feel the "hey, I want that!". I think it would "do you good" to spend a week using only proprietary software on a Microsoft Windows system; I don't think you're aware of just how sucky it is. If you were, you'd realise that campaigning on the basis of software quality in addition to freedom could be effective indeed. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).