From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs vista build failures Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:46:48 +0000 Message-ID: <20080713214648.GB1076@muc.de> References: <36366a980807091202rd3b6521jc9fa45d321bc9d37@mail.gmail.com> <36366a980807101702r5677d096g8e62ef5b3e278868@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807111217m66d6cf4el777c197c107ce034@mail.gmail.com> <87skug6tq5.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4eb0089f0807111345h13eccdds9b2cf43370b94074@mail.gmail.com> <4eb0089f0807121340x5e26f6dbve03ef50b238f3a3a@mail.gmail.com> <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1215984089 20172 80.91.229.12 (13 Jul 2008 21:21:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:21:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, David Robinow To: Chong Yidong Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 13 23:22:15 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KI91L-0000Dy-1j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:22:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37641 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KI90S-0003SA-St for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:21:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KI90O-0003Rq-LX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:21:16 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KI90L-0003Qe-Oz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:21:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=52911 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KI90L-0003QU-Kf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:21:13 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:4794 helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KI90K-0005jF-Mv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:21:13 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 57208 invoked by uid 3782); 13 Jul 2008 21:21:08 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E528FE.dip.t-dialin.net [217.229.40.254]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 13 Jul 2008 23:21:05 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 8863 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Jul 2008 21:46:48 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87k5fph5rh.fsf@stupidchicken.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:100647 Archived-At: Hi, everybody! On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 04:46:10PM -0400, Chong Yidong wrote: > "David Robinow" writes: > >> Since GNU/Linux works for so many others, I suspect there was a > >> problem in installation. The best way to solve them is to ask an > >> expert to do it for you. > > I didn't need an expert for Windows XP Home, Windows XP Pro, or Vista. > > I spent 30 years as a computer programmer with a fair amount of unix > > experience. I think I should be able to do a simple install. > As mentioned, GNU/Linux works for so many others that it's probably an > easily solvable problem. GNU/Linux _works_ fantastically, but that's not what's under discussion. _GETTING_ a G/L system working is the issue, and that's best described as a slog, or a nightmare. There are any number of blogs which describe how "you just insert the DVD, and 2 hours later you've got a complete working system". I've never met anybody in real life who's had that experience. Most people I know who've tried to install GNU/Linux have spent, perhaps, a solid weekend at it then given up for lack of time and energy. It took me about a month elapsed time (~20 days work (when I didn't have a day job)) to get Debian Sarge working reasonably after my old PC died. Richard, you're perhaps the brightest guy around, here. How long did it take you to get your first GNU/Linux installation installed and _fully_ working (i.e. all peripherals, networking, X-Windows, email, web-browsing, .... all satisfactory)? For example, it took more than a day to get printing working (a standard Linux-supported Samsung Laser printer on the parallel port). It involved delving into the printing-HOWTO, and the kernel documentation, enabling the port support, rebuilding the kernel, struggling through the undocumented garbage that is (?was) CUPS, discarding that for a documented printing system, selecting a printing (formatting) driver by trial and error, ..... This was typical of most things - a long hard slog, fixing problem after problem after problem, a typical problem taking between 2 and 6 hours to resolve. And yes, at the end of that month GNU/Linux did indeed work fantastically. By contrast, I could have bought and installed Microsoft Windows XP, and I would have had that working within a day. However, MS Windows doesn't work fantastically, ever. I have heard that installing G/L has become easier in the last few years. But my advice to anybody who asks is still "don't install G/L yourself unless you're _sure_ you really want it, and you've got the stamina and stubbornness to see the installation through to the end". -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).