From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mike Mattie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:16:15 -0700 Message-ID: <20080331181615.505e3f86@reforged> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <20080331224833.GB5911@muc.de> <87d4pae8ja.fsf@gmx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/Mo1SBYPj9qK1a2BrUpvlntI"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1207012656 17069 80.91.229.12 (1 Apr 2008 01:17:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 01:17:36 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 01 03:18:08 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JgV8R-0002GJ-1D for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:17:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JgV7o-0008Ep-TH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JgV7k-0008Dk-NL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:16 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JgV7g-0008DX-UF for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JgV7g-0008DU-KN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.178]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JgV7g-0001q1-6A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k34so2317187wah.10 for ; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=jaSJJRMNMIVmjRTolb8j7WJEI9Q2xErZuVSvZeKXECw=; b=trDLBOdP5sDG9gTeAVRgNDniX1zthGyhf6y3zx+KaNjNIvzvxZmAAtgl23nj9RCV0cJwVBWEfMZaaPLl5VztL/V114SqgD8YjZOJ5m86WVhPyB2MU8NDA2KFFnZlwHxqUIeb2icTCuJx/qUj/bSuM5DzLm5bfTrmcIJOCR72mkI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=TB92upQZlnhTMyIvNOO8HKc5Oq0wykc3hBcOE7qhev8MgQx4MRJbVg4eRhWIuigXPC9f5MqXD4jVOIM+hyQlEsRWw1LT6i8uCEAK/CirGdUTsIs1dPvRqJaq/cWpBx8K93uz2OzMlzFP4pod7+uXQxRRiz1J4bmtVpnbm9+7Vt8= Original-Received: by 10.115.15.1 with SMTP id s1mr11387512wai.0.1207012630977; Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from reforged ( [71.217.206.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y11sm10588638pod.9.2008.03.31.18.17.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:17:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87d4pae8ja.fsf@gmx.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:94081 Archived-At: --Sig_/Mo1SBYPj9qK1a2BrUpvlntI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:14:01 +0200 Sebastian Rose wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > To see this confusion, just peruse this sentence from the page > > "Transient Mark" in the Emacs Manual: > > > > If the variable `mark-even-if-inactive' is non-`nil' in > > Transient Mark mode, then commands can use the mark and the region > > even when it is inactive. >=20 > ...and the rest of the truth is the documentation for `mark': >=20 > mark > Function: Return this buffer's mark value as integer, or nil > if never set. >=20 > In Transient Mark mode, this function signals an error if > the mark is not active. However, if `mark-even-if-inactive' > is non-nil, or the argument FORCE is non-nil, it disregards whether > the mark is active, and returns an integer or nil in the usual way. >=20 > If you are using this in an editing command, you are most > likely making a mistake; see the documentation of `set-mark'. >=20 > Here is, where the former words get their sence. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > In truth, T-M-M is a ragbag of features arbitrarily conflated into a > > single option: There's (i) region highlighting; (ii) a variant of > > narrowing, for certain commands; (iii) disabling the mark. > > Anything else I've missed? >=20 >=20 > Maybe using transient-mark-mode and have some commands narrowing to > the region ;) This is something I use all the time. Having > replace-string replacing from point to end of buffer is useless in > many cases. And if I wont to do that, I just don't create a region. > Here TMM adds an editing feature to emacs, IMHO. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Yet to get this wider audience, what this wider audience is getting > > is getting less and less like Emacs. >=20 >=20 > They're getting TMM since I use emacs. And since then I have to turn > TMM on, if I want to use it. This was never a propblem. >=20 >=20 > > As somebody who prizes simplicity, clarity and logical cohesion, > > making this psuedo-T-M-M default fills me with revulsion. There's > > got to be better ways of attracting new users. >=20 >=20 > I don't care about defaults at all as long they don't change all the > time. But I think TMM is somewhat underestimated here. >=20 > Visualization is what attracs users today. Make the application think > for me makes it a usefull tool. There are about 7 registers in short > time memory in an avarage brain. I rember the point and the mark even > after a 2 hours phone call if the region is highlighted. And *ploink* > remember why. >=20 > right-click to create a highlighted region, and by more right clicks > on any end of that region resize it (this could not be done without > highlighting). Or cut the region by double-right-click (and inserting > by middle-click as usual). Very convinient in some cases. I refute: swap point and mark can do that. highlighting has nothing to do with it. (swap, move)+ works. You did get closer to the one legit scenario for highlighting when setting a bound. Hint: the mouse's resolution is beyond that of the character cell. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Sebastian >=20 >=20 >=20 --Sig_/Mo1SBYPj9qK1a2BrUpvlntI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8YzfdfRchrkBInkRAuaxAKCjjYlEx4AFsUK5KpEhpxmCL1psdACeK4uD rwYLNdr2rgQWzTvx8v2ZXIk= =GOmr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/Mo1SBYPj9qK1a2BrUpvlntI--