On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:14:01 +0200
Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> wrote:

> Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:
> > To see this confusion, just peruse this sentence from the page
> > "Transient Mark" in the Emacs Manual:
> >
> >        If the variable `mark-even-if-inactive' is non-`nil' in
> > Transient Mark mode, then commands can use the mark and the region
> > even when it is inactive.
> 
> ...and the rest of the truth is the documentation for `mark':
> 
>        mark
>          Function: Return this buffer's mark value as integer, or nil
> if never set.
> 
>        In Transient Mark mode, this function signals an error if
>        the mark is not active.  However, if `mark-even-if-inactive'
> is non-nil, or the argument FORCE is non-nil, it disregards whether
> the mark is active, and returns an integer or nil in the usual way.
> 
>        If you are using this in an editing command, you are most
> likely making a mistake; see the documentation of `set-mark'.
> 
> Here is, where the former words get their sence.
> 
> 
> 
> > In truth, T-M-M is a ragbag of features arbitrarily conflated into a
> > single option: There's (i) region highlighting; (ii) a variant of
> > narrowing, for certain commands; (iii) disabling the mark.
> > Anything else I've missed?
> 
> 
> Maybe using transient-mark-mode and have some commands narrowing to
> the region ;) This is something I use all the time. Having
> replace-string replacing from point to end of buffer is useless in
> many cases. And if I wont to do that, I just don't create a region.
> Here TMM adds an editing feature to emacs, IMHO.
> 
> 
> 
> > Yet to get this wider audience, what this wider audience is getting
> > is getting less and less like Emacs.
> 
> 
> They're getting TMM since I use emacs. And since then I have to turn
> TMM on, if I want to use it. This was never a propblem.
> 
> 
> > As somebody who prizes simplicity, clarity and logical cohesion,
> > making this psuedo-T-M-M default fills me with revulsion.  There's
> > got to be better ways of attracting new users.
> 
> 
> I don't care about defaults at all as long they don't change all the
> time. But I think TMM is somewhat underestimated here.
> 
> Visualization is what attracs users today. Make the application think
> for me makes it a usefull tool. There are about 7 registers in short
> time memory in an avarage brain. I rember the point and the mark even
> after a 2 hours phone call if the region is highlighted. And *ploink*
> remember why.

No tool thinks for you, but tools can help. When ediff highlights the
part of a diff that differs (refining the diff), then highlighting shows
me something I was looking for.

When t-m-m highlights what I already know to be the region it's not helping,
just flushing more of those precious registers you spoke of with an
angry fruit salad of color. Since it's marking where I have been, it's 
literally riding the horse backwards ala Lewis Carrol.

In fact I never remember where I set a mark, because I am busy looking
for the *other bounds*. If I need to change the other bounds I can do it
with swap point and mark. When I need to change it is the only time I even
recall the mark, much less expend brain power keeping track of it.

No one has yet to explain how highlighting where you have been points
to where you are going, because it's bloody impossible. Also you have
to be so careful not to accidentally de-activate the region. Many windows
users I have observed require several tries to mark a region successfully
precisely because it is transient - meaning you have to get it right
in one shot.

If it helps you manage the burden of habit, then so much the better. But
it is hardly the sort of thing you would teach to a child:
"Walk backwards so you can see where you have been"

I am not trying to convince you to give up t-m-m, a man convinced against
his will is of the same opinion still. But I would ask that the mark
and mark ring be left out of this transient stuff. If you really want it
transient why is the mark being molested ? invent something else !
 
> right-click to create a highlighted region, and by more right clicks
> on any end of that region resize it (this could not be done without
> highlighting). Or cut the region by double-right-click (and inserting
> by middle-click as usual). Very convinient in some cases.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
>     Sebastian
> 
> 
>