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From: Mike Mattie <codermattie@gmail.com>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Cc: rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault]
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:06:43 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20080331150643.78efa7d9@reforged> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1JgMoM-00024l-HH@fencepost.gnu.org>

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On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:24:42 -0400
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

>     >    "You are running an Emacs configuration designed to be easy
>     > to _learn_.  When you have become somewhat proficient in its
>     > use, you may wish to switch to a standard Emacs setup, which is
>     > optimised for ease of _use_ rather than ease of learning."
> 
>     I like how you formulate the difference between ease of learn and
> ease of use.
> 
> Making Emacs easier to learn is an improvement, in general.
> But what use is there in having a different Emacs configuration
> which is easier to learn, if it is not the recommended mode of use?
> 
> That seems like telling people a shortcut leading to somewhere other
> than their destination.

That is the essence of my disagreement by endorsing t-m-m with default
status. Since the user's of things like t-m-m can't articulate how
the mode enhances their productivity beyond force of habit, expecting
them to articulate where they are going with it
(other than emulation - a poor standard: emulating which program/system?), 
and how it's useful is not possible.

The fact that the region abstraction is thoroughly broken as well because
they tried to make persistent marks transient, instead of making regions
transient is a disaster piled on top of confusion.

I won't argue with force of habit, but I will argue with quick and dirty hacks
where the Right Way: a new region abstraction, was eschewed for implementation
speed leaving a legacy of nasty complexity for others to sort out.

Others sorting it out implies someone who cares enough about making it simple
enough that bugs are obvious doing a considerable amount of work. The alternative
is more hair and bugs.

> 

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2008-03-31 22:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-03-23 23:00 Transient Mark Mode on by default Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 10:15 ` Tassilo Horn
2008-03-24 11:55 ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-24 13:06   ` Juanma Barranquero
2008-03-24 13:28   ` Tassilo Horn
2008-03-24 13:57   ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-24 15:05   ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 15:15     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 20:09     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-24 20:32       ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 21:02         ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 18:31           ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-30 19:19             ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-30 19:34               ` Peter Danenberg
2008-03-30 19:42               ` paul r
2008-03-30 19:47                 ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:24                   ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-30 20:29                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:37                       ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-31  3:10                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  7:48                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-31  9:42                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  9:18                         ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-30 21:51                   ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-30 22:16                   ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-31  7:46                     ` David Kastrup
2008-03-31  8:00                       ` M Jared Finder
2008-03-31  8:07                         ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 19:45               ` David Kastrup
2008-03-30 20:29                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-30 22:42                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-30 23:11                   ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-30 23:50               ` William Xu
2008-03-31  3:23                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-31  3:36                   ` William Xu
2008-03-31 16:25               ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-31 18:08                 ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-01  0:20                   ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-01  0:40                     ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-04-01  1:24                     ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-01  1:26                     ` Stefan Monnier
2008-04-01  6:14                       ` David Kastrup
2008-04-01 21:34                         ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 13:53                           ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-02 16:27                             ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 17:34                             ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 18:05                               ` Drew Adams
2008-04-02 22:07                                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 20:27                               ` Chong Yidong
2008-04-02 21:29                                 ` Kim F. Storm
2008-04-06 10:09                           ` cua-selection-mode by default (was: Transient Mark Mode on by default) David Kastrup
2008-04-01 21:04                       ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Richard Stallman
2008-04-01 21:05                     ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-01 21:53                       ` Thomas Lord
2008-04-02  7:45                         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-24 22:34         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  1:45       ` Bastien
2008-03-25  1:41     ` Bastien
2008-03-24 17:28   ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-24 19:54     ` paul r
2008-03-24 20:36       ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 20:57         ` paul r
2008-03-24 21:04           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 21:42             ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 21:23           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-29  9:18             ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-24 22:28           ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 23:01             ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:11             ` paul r
2008-03-24 23:34               ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:44                 ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-24 23:57                 ` paul r
2008-03-25  1:54       ` Bastien
2008-03-25 11:25         ` paul r
2008-03-25 23:49           ` Bastien
2008-03-26  8:49             ` paul r
2008-03-24 22:15     ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-24 22:47       ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Drew Adams
2008-03-24 23:29         ` paul r
2008-03-24 23:33           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  7:37           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25  2:06         ` Honoring traditional defaults Bastien
2008-03-25  2:23           ` Bastien
2008-03-25  3:00           ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-25  5:23         ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  7:21           ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode onbydefault] Drew Adams
2008-03-25 19:36             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25 21:38         ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient Mark Mode on bydefault] Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 21:42           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 22:26           ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient MarkMode " Drew Adams
2008-03-25 23:53             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-26  1:49               ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25 22:28           ` Honoring traditional defaults - how to do it. [was: Transient Mark Mode " paul r
2008-03-25 23:31             ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-31 16:24             ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-31 21:12               ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-04-02  2:53                 ` Richard Stallman
2008-04-02 11:15                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-31 22:06               ` Mike Mattie [this message]
2008-03-24 23:22       ` Honoring traditional defaults Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 23:38         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 12:23           ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-25  5:17         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  0:12       ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25 20:53       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25 21:00         ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-26  1:55         ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-26  7:01           ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Drew Adams
2008-03-26  6:54         ` Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-29  9:52       ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-24 18:40   ` Transient Mark Mode on by default Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 19:09     ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-24 20:16       ` Sascha Wilde
2008-03-24 20:40         ` paul r
2008-03-24 20:55           ` Lennart Borgman (gmail)
2008-03-25  3:21           ` Evans Winner
2008-03-24 20:46         ` Drew Adams
2008-03-24 21:47       ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-03-25  0:29         ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  0:38           ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  8:16           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-24 22:27       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2008-03-25  0:07         ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  1:50       ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-25  4:06         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-25  7:07           ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  7:23             ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25 13:24               ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25 13:36             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-03-25 14:19               ` Drew Adams
2008-03-26  4:47           ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-27  2:53             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-27 14:08               ` paul r
2008-03-25  7:14         ` Jan Djärv
2008-03-25 12:37           ` René Kyllingstad
2008-03-24 22:10     ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-24 23:44       ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-25  0:39         ` Thomas Lord
2008-03-25  1:17           ` Jason Rumney
2008-03-25  3:07             ` Chong Yidong
2008-03-25  7:07               ` Drew Adams
2008-03-25  8:28       ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25 21:01         ` Richard Stallman
2008-03-26  0:50           ` Mathias Dahl
2008-03-25  2:12     ` Bastien
2008-03-25  2:50       ` Mike Mattie
2008-03-29  9:01   ` Jari Aalto
2008-03-31 22:48     ` Alan Mackenzie
2008-04-01  0:14       ` Sebastian Rose
2008-04-01  1:09         ` Mike Mattie
2008-04-01  1:16         ` Mike Mattie

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