From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mike Mattie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Honoring traditional defaults [was: Transient Mark Mode on by default] Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:55:49 -0700 Message-ID: <20080325185549.76c339c4@reforged> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <874pavg45t.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20080325205353.GA1641@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/m9iTa9xyRMEXeV.LTAC_+PS"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206496839 4043 80.91.229.12 (26 Mar 2008 02:00:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 02:00:39 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 26 03:01:08 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JeKwt-00020X-PL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 26 Mar 2008 03:01:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JeKwI-00080C-ES for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JeKwE-0007xU-5x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:26 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JeKwD-0007vv-1Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:25 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JeKwC-0007vp-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:24 -0400 Original-Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.227]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JeKwC-0000bu-2N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:24 -0400 Original-Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 57so3108751wri.12 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:00:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=vtQx+PKDfCU79hB9qj6YzSiypzcJy2fF1gFXwFcM6vI=; b=Xu5xbYpGE39awGcjKwcrAb3nmmKdAJEYOCPCvGgFmypbfyKyL+l1476cn0vvsy0sSNjuQBEsZF4LOH3S8WaseJViktntAi0dfB9xjlbOJoq08pa0fqQ0dyyeBnHFDofp6Tq5tsWwx/4sQT6KkNdgGVhgQW/H4ycUgmzBcABeQyU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=i8TdqVjzlK99TKrOyWZiYggfD8k2A6gcc8IrhizeNcHRQEWHSms8yhEbG8zAZDH0CdLl3bZRWQiIba1u3kqX63K2D57Ef4Xr1dY4x6YX/luuQhLhKgyN6R3ZABeSF6mNmgffsnKeCm7E4PbT5qUJhERhjeOkY/d9I25NFINiTNw= Original-Received: by 10.114.120.1 with SMTP id s1mr14481693wac.137.1206496822758; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from reforged ( [71.217.206.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y25sm19180004pod.5.2008.03.25.19.00.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:00:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20080325205353.GA1641@muc.de> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93482 Archived-At: --Sig_/m9iTa9xyRMEXeV.LTAC_+PS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:53:53 +0000 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > Hi, Stephen! >=20 > On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 07:15:10AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > > The only reason not to make Windows/Mac-like behavior the default > > that makes sense to me is if we think that traditional Emacs > > behavior is *clearly* superior for *most* beginners, enough to make > > it worth a short period of confusion and annoyance while they learn > > to use the Emacs behaviors. For something as controversial (and > > deservedly so) as t-m-m, I think trying the change at this stage in > > the release cycle is a good idea. >=20 > FWIW, I think that the trad Emacs way is clearly superior. The fact > that I use Emacs enthusiastically bears this out. >=20 [snip] >=20 > The whole point of this thread is (or, at least, should be and was) > how the _default_ Emacs looks, what "emacs -Q" gets you. The fact > that all of us here can configure Emacs to Alpha Centauri and back > again is beside the mark. >=20 > I am not worried what TMM will do to _my_ Emacs - it'll make me add > another line to my .emacs. I _do_ worry, and worry a lot, that > newcomers might never come to grok the delightful conceptual unity of > the Emacs mark - and that their use of it will thus forever be > inefficient. >=20 Honoring tradition is a very pertinent title for the human side of the issu= e. I see it as honoring a *promise* not tradition. When i began to use Emacs it was hard, even though I was a fairly proficient programmer at the time. I persisted with Emacs because Emacs was sold to me like this: * It is insanely hard to learn, but once mastered you will have acquired aw= esome powers and perspective.=20 * It might even help you write code faster. What it actually turned out to be was this: * It's really hard to overcome the reinforcement of habit in your grey matt= er. * Using Emacs to it's full potential carries the price of learning elisp. * It does make good on it's promise of the Right Thing. Just throw your .em= acs into RCS and let the itch drive the rest. Why it matters: So the new user, takes this promise of the Right Thing on faith, dedicating= themselves, their precious free time to learning Emacs. They climb the mountain to discover what ? The Righ= t Thing wrested from meticulous thought, passionate debate, and decades of endless polish ? I certainly hope so, as I was fortunate to receive the bounty of that promise. As long as there is real value in Emacs - value untarnished by the= mediocrity of=20 consensus and tribalism (cultural habit) - value appraised from a perspecti= ve that holds better=20 or worse as objective measures, refugees will find a home in Emacs. Does adding T-M-M, CUA mode, and brethren keep that promise or forsake it ? How terrible a thing to contemplate, a student climbing that mountain only = to discover yet again thoughtless concession to the irrational, hows without whys, and design without theme.= =20 The moment Emacs trades away it's most precious value, neglects it's most i= mportant promise to a user, it becomes just another editor. The fact that Emacs does things different, the hope that the Emacs way is b= etter, and the celebration of creativity in elisp is the Emacs pact with the user. I hold up viper as an example. Emacs delivered so well on that promise that= vi people built a emulator for their editor inside Emacs. Why did they do that ? I think it's because the abstra= ctions hit a incredible design sweet-spot. Buffers, regions, functions, marks, the point etc. Freedom of Choice: Unfortunately this world is full of people who are certain they know what's= better for their neighbor than their neighbor. Emacs does not need to become theocratic. People should be free t= o create and add what they wish to Emacs. The core however is *sacred*, the common trust in which we have p= oured our time and minds. Let us guard it well with reason, keep the promise. We can encourage freedom, expe= rimentation, and sharing in something like ELPA. But keep the promise in the core. Enabling t-m-m by default is endorsing t-m-m as the best way of editing. Do= we really think this is the best way to use emacs ? deserving of the core and privileged default status ? or is it = a transition path at best ? Now that is a question for the community. Cheers, Mike Mattie --Sig_/m9iTa9xyRMEXeV.LTAC_+PS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH6a0ldfRchrkBInkRAoHqAJoCzvTk6SHUtG6dT77obPuUQ9VAFgCZAXie s90Q+hkoG8rCXsIBbye58bY= =5M7J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/m9iTa9xyRMEXeV.LTAC_+PS--