From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mike Mattie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:10:53 -0700 Message-ID: <20080324151053.158b3048@reforged> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/0lTarrBs0SEwom=OX=XFNR8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206396959 1523 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 22:15:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:15:59 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 24 23:16:29 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JduxT-0007ck-UW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:16:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jduwq-0000nh-Qs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jduwl-0000nB-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:15 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Jduwj-0000mj-Oa for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Jduwj-0000mg-KC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:13 -0400 Original-Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.182]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Jduwi-0006x8-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 18:15:13 -0400 Original-Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id n30so1465261elf.7 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:15:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=Nxv0FZTCOPqlRmGdJUXe1+PXPj3159cjKxqgugqvlDw=; b=q2oOA1gpep3Q2BQ3QsoiJHFwfeo6vKFOHS0z+IAgvttzdAj5bYcSaqZrn8BUNM1wOmaDPA7lMFjIi1YSfUesRxubeEbDua14GtB39mNCOCROGxq+3MRREtVYHzhCQTKhKrJkp6zXvdrri24bn2UkbSGXhrVK8qForSM4xz3+OAY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=aHWBDrfaiNmlSvKo2PUpCoM2O3+Dz44Hi+jow8i0CdGwxJUHrsqzd/jryJ2muBd9sWjQa8rRJGDXEvUAcYWNAMTsXCDDIL/iBPzyDIhBzMhLsD2FedMk/D8QYVNQefdIm74GNHEdxV4nlIkvIddM+JfAg8Cz3PW2mi0kSPxpmQM= Original-Received: by 10.115.58.1 with SMTP id l1mr12789469wak.110.1206396899375; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from reforged ( [71.217.206.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j38sm16838663waf.54.2008.03.24.15.14.57 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:14:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93339 Archived-At: --Sig_/0lTarrBs0SEwom=OX=XFNR8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:40:37 +0100 Sascha Wilde wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 07:00:10PM -0400, Chong Yidong wrote: > >> Thanks for all those who contributed to the recent discussion on > >> the list. I've discussed this some more with Stefan, and the > >> result is that Transient Mark Mode is now turned on by default, in > >> the trunk. > [...] > > I say, yet again, Transient Mark Mode is NOT a good default. It > > violates the philosophy of Emacs in several ways: > [...] >=20 > FWIW: Full Ack. Ditto. One vital aspect missing from the discussion was the reason why windows/mac= =20 highlighting works the way it does. Those systems are entirely different: for starters not having a persistent mark. Other systems are not necessarily better, any of us have probably seen anno= yed users selecting a region over and over again, because simple inputs kill the=20 highlighting. It's not possible to move one of the bounds of the region while retaining the opposite bounds like you can by swapping the point and = mark. The visual feedback argument also does not sound right to me. Feedback is useful yes, but the reason you need a region highlighted on garden variety UI's stems from the fact that most inputs kill the active region. The highl= ighting shows the user that they haven't cancelled the region inadvertently with a command. Another point is implementation. If it is a transient mark, then it shouldn't ever interact with a persistent mark ring. That is remarkably obvious. The fact that the two have become conflated is either poor design or a implementation shortcut to get the existing body of code working with active regions. If Emacs wants to attract new users there is one sure-fire way. Show them something *better* than what they use right now. Better can mean: copying (compat), cherry-picking, and innovating.=20 When contemplating gifts from the greeks (like active region), prudence demands that you actually look closely at the gift before bringing it inside the city. A person who was serious about finding the Right Thing would have done a considerable amount of research, contacted the people who invented the active region (xerox parc ?), wrote comparative analysis sensitive to historical context/accident, and experimented on live humans. This TMM looks like blind emulation, poor impedance matching with Emacs, and as a result many use cases have proliferated modality and other obvious warning signs. I don't want a full blown FSA diagram to figure out when my sorta mark, becomes a real mark. especially since authors of commands who haven't studied this issue closely will likely shim all sorts of surprising behavior into their commands. Complexity begets complexity. I do not oppose the idea of a active region entirely, but I prefer to read the kind of articulation posted by Thomas Lord, with tables, analysis, and clear thought. No articulation is perfect, but at least there was method and a body of thought upon which people could judge and revise. The "everyone else is doing it" argument is bogus, but it seems that must be stated yet again. "Purging" or blood-letting was accepted medical practice, and many patients survived, but that didn't magically make it a cure, just common practice. The Right Thing endures the test of time, common practice becomes the ridicule of the next generation. So many programmers clearly think themselves to be unusually rational, a step above the general population, but the half baked arguments put forth from both directions validate that clear thought takes hard work and rigor ; virtues contrary to our nature. I for one lament that blog quality rhetoric exhausts the discussion, at which point someone actually does real analysis out of sheer frustration to assassinate the thread - but by then people's opinions unreachable by reason from sheer fatigue. If you share that view of the discussion so far, then the discussion has just started, as people now begin to realize that their arguments need weight of reason, and that a quick bum-rush of pontification has failed to convince the skeptical and carry the day with unanimity. > As I wrote on this topic before: I was used to put forms into > my .emacs to turn on fancy features that I consider worthwhile -- > nowadays I find my self more and more often fiddling with .emacs to > turn annoying features of. I have noticed that as well. =20 > I liked the philosophy behind the old way better: make the defaults > simple and clean and leave it to the user to turn on all the bells, > whistles and trautonii he likes. >=20 > cheers > sascha --Sig_/0lTarrBs0SEwom=OX=XFNR8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH6CbtdfRchrkBInkRAmTrAKCVGLZgeDe6zno+eORSqBEfxwaguQCeKETO z+yMUwCfRhbmy5ekBpNlsB8= =++Xq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/0lTarrBs0SEwom=OX=XFNR8--