From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:01:27 +0000 Message-ID: <20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> References: <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203446997 27392 80.91.229.12 (19 Feb 2008 18:49:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 18:49:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, storm@cua.dk, miles@gnu.org To: Dan Nicolaescu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 19 19:50:09 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JRXXb-0006Rv-RP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:50:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRXX6-0003nH-VP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:49:36 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRXWb-0003YA-JB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:49:05 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRXWa-0003XO-5A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:49:05 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRXWZ-0003XG-Nx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:49:03 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1] helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JRXWZ-0007lK-4G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 13:49:03 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 58118 invoked by uid 3782); 19 Feb 2008 18:49:00 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p57AF4EC5.dip.t-dialin.net [87.175.78.197]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:48:55 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 1995 invoked by uid 1000); 19 Feb 2008 19:01:27 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89583 Archived-At: Hi, once again, Dan! On Tue, Feb 19, 2008 at 01:38:38AM -0800, Dan Nicolaescu wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: [Dan]: > > > OK, I have changed the default for mark-even-if-inactive to be t > > > and turned on transient-mark-mode by default. > > I feel I must protest about this. .... [ .... ] > > .... I think enough typical users will detest this facility, that > > it should not be thrust upon them. > I don't think so, typical users are used the transient-mark-mode > behavior from all the other applications they use on their desktop. > Many times emacs has been called backwards because it refuses to > implement this now omnipresent convention (plus a few other ones). Let it be called backward - following the crowd has never been Emacs policy. If it is good, do it, otherwise don't. Unless I've missed it in another thread (for which, apologies), I don't think anybody has demonstrated the goodness of this change. Anyhow, transient-mark-mode is NOT what "all other applications" have. For example, other applications don't have their font-locking obliterated over 90% of the screen when first displaying a buffer loaded from desktop. And I haven't seen another application where the transient-facing explodes when you do an equivalend of M-:. In X-Windows today, I tried setting the region face to a very pale grey background, no foreground. This wasn't too bad in general, but it obliterated my hi-lock faces. On a GUI system, can we somehow make a pale grey background attenuate other backgrounds it is applied to rather than replacing them? If not, shouldn't we be able to, before transient regionification becomes default? What would you suggest as a default for the region face on a 16-colour TTY? I can assure you that dark blue background doesn't cut it. > It seems that changing ANY default will provoke some resistance from at > least one person on this list because "it used to be different before". That is because the existing defaults have been carefully thought out, and honed to optimality over over 20 years of development. If they are to be changed, the changes must likewise be carefully thought out. I think many people come to Emacs because of the refreshing efficiency of its ideas, as contrasted with other programs' slavish conformance to a lowest common denominator "standard". In otherwords, and IMAO, Transient Mark Mode, while good enough for those who consciously chose to enable it, needs fixing before becoming a default, if that is to happen. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).