From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dan Nicolaescu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default [Re: CUA-mode features and documenation] Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:38:38 -0800 Message-ID: <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> References: <200802131623.m1DGNrls003614@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <87odakwl2r.fsf@jurta.org> <87myq4saw1.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878x1ov227.fsf@jurta.org> <878x1os6mt.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <47B39231.8010108@gmail.com> <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203414053 31177 80.91.229.12 (19 Feb 2008 09:40:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:40:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, storm@cua.dk, miles@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 19 10:41:16 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JROyM-0006eT-PU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:41:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JROxs-0007gA-4q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:40:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JROxj-0007fr-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:40:31 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JROxi-0007fQ-Kz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:40:30 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JROxi-0007fN-BY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:40:30 -0500 Original-Received: from sallyv1.ics.uci.edu ([128.195.1.109]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA1:24) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JROxa-0008Uh-9s; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 04:40:22 -0500 X-ICS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1204018722.43201@iiRXOhg523qWii84vQr7Iw Original-Received: from mothra.ics.uci.edu (mothra.ics.uci.edu [128.195.6.93]) by sallyv1.ics.uci.edu (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id m1J9ccVg016565; Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:38:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:52:31 +0000") Original-Lines: 63 X-ICS-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-ICS-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-1.44, required 5, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.44) X-ICS-MailScanner-From: dann@mothra.ics.uci.edu X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89555 Archived-At: Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hi, Dan! > > On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 08:58:26AM -0800, Dan Nicolaescu wrote: > > Richard Stallman writes: > > > > BTW, before the pretest for 22.1 you were trying > > > transient-mark-mode in order to enable it by default. What was > > > the result of that experiment? > > > > I could not stand Transient Mark mode by itself. However, I now > > > use it with `mark-even-if-inactive' = t, and I think that is fine. > > > OK, I have changed the default for mark-even-if-inactive to be t and > > turned on transient-mark-mode by default. > > I feel I must protest about this. I tried transient-mark-mode yesterday > (for the first time) on a Solaris system (Emacs 22.1). I'm trying it now > on my Linux TTY, also Emacs 22.1. > > I've done nothing more than M-x transient-mark-mode (in a buffer.el > loaded by desktop), and already half of the screen's font-locking has > been obliterated by an ugly heavy blue transient-mark face (whatever it's > called). (The same happened yesterday on Solaris running X-Windows). > > I do M-: mark-even-if-inactive, and the blue face vanishes in an > explosion. I can't work when things explode in my face. Then M-: (setq > mark-even-if-inactive t). Things behave a bit more sanely. > > Then C-x 5 b *info*. 90% of the manual page was obliterated by this > ghastly overpowering deep blue face. By experimentation, C-g got rid of > it. > > Transient Mark mode is a radical departure from standard Emacs, in which > the concept of the mark is substantially changed. I don't think we're > talking here about two equally valid ways of doing things, one of which > we must chose; rather we have an option which can be on or off by > default - a bit like paren matching. Such options shouldn't, in > general, be on by default. > > OK, I {sh,c}ould read the fine manual, but I've deliberately avoided > this, so as to simulate the reactions of typical users. I think enough > typical users will detest this facility, that it should not be thrust > upon them. I don't think so, typical users are used the transient-mark-mode behavior from all the other applications they use on their desktop. Many times emacs has been called backwards because it refuses to implement this now omnipresent convention (plus a few other ones). Defaults are most useful for people that don't have a .emacs, nor have the skills/time/or interest to write one. Providing the behavior that such type of users expect by default is the best way to make a larger number of people happy. Yes, sometimes common conventions are not the thing, and we can provide a different default then, but this is not one of those case. It seems that changing ANY default will provoke some resistance from at least one person on this list because "it used to be different before". But catering mostly to the readers of this list is not the best idea, better have 5 people here add a line in their .emacs to turn off some feature than have a few thousands add a line to turn it off.