From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:11:21 +0000 Message-ID: <20080101171120.GC3830@muc.de> References: <20071230122217.3CA84830B9A@snark.thyrsus.com> <20071231130712.GB8641@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199207134 31686 80.91.229.12 (1 Jan 2008 17:05:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:05:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Eric S. Raymond" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jan 01 18:05:52 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J9kYn-0000NI-N2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:05:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kYR-00060R-Tr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:05:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kVf-0004m3-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:02:35 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kVb-0004km-9X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:02:35 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9kVb-0004kf-43 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:02:31 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1] helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J9kVa-0000Un-6p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 12:02:31 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 43266 invoked by uid 3782); 1 Jan 2008 17:02:28 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p57AF58EF.dip.t-dialin.net [87.175.88.239]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:02:25 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 6505 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Jan 2008 17:11:21 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071231130712.GB8641@thyrsus.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85810 Archived-At: Hi, Eric! On Mon, Dec 31, 2007 at 08:07:12AM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Eli Zaretskii : > The old-timers on this list should be asking themselves why, when Emacs > is so undeniably important, it can't attract as many developers as a > mere fantasy game. A few suggestions: o - Emacs is implemented in a wierd special purpose language. o - Emacs is already so good that it's difficult to see room for new features. o - Much core Emacs code has, despite RMS's good sense and emphasis on simplicity, become tortuous and difficult to get into. o - Emacs is a victim of its own success - as its new features make it steadily easier to use, it becomes steadily more intricate and thus harder to learn. A non-user of Emacs cannot become an Emacs hacker. [ .... ] > The Emacs project, though, is still operating at a scale and tempo I > think of as being typical of the late 1980s and early 1990s. I think > we are limited by poor tools, and by habits of thought derived from > those poor tools. Hmmm. There's something ironic about an Emacs developer blaming poor tools. ;-) I'd think it's worth emphasising that CVS is _NOT_ a poor tool; it's an exceptionally flexible, solid and reliable one, free from feature bloat, and I'm grateful indeed to the hackers who've maintained it over the decades. What you mean, Eric, is that CVS is a hammer, and we could now work better by using screws rather than nails. What's the best screwdriver? I've never been able to get excited by VCSs; apart from CVS, I've only had experience with proprietary VCSs, and they have, with one exception, been ghastly. > I'd like to help that change. I'm enthusiastic about this. Go for it, Eric! But I suggest the following two constraints for the new tools, which might not apply to Battle for Wesnoth: o - They must support "batch mode" working, for RMS and others who concentrate fiercely on a single activity at a time. o - They must, like Emacs, be fully usable on a text console without a mouse as well as in X. There are at least 3 hackers here who prefer such a setup. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).