From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eric S. Raymond" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What a modern collaboration toolkit looks like Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:58:36 -0500 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs Message-ID: <20071231025836.GA7241@thyrsus.com> References: <20071230122217.3CA84830B9A@snark.thyrsus.com> <20071230172259.GB6572@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1199073241 22191 80.91.229.12 (31 Dec 2007 03:54:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 03:54:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: esr@snark.thyrsus.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 31 04:54:14 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J9BjA-0002st-Mm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 31 Dec 2007 04:54:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9Bip-0007vE-5h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:53:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9Bim-0007uz-1S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:53:48 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J9Bij-0007un-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:53:46 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J9Bij-0007uk-LB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:53:45 -0500 Original-Received: from static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.162.243.5] helo=golux.thyrsus.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J9Bif-0001Yb-TC; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:53:42 -0500 Original-Received: by golux.thyrsus.com (Postfix, from userid 23) id A0FA0CF80BA; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 21:58:36 -0500 (EST) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.15+20070412 (2007-04-11) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85723 Archived-At: Richard Stallman : > > I usually don't have an internet connection, so I could not possibly > > use the methods you recommend. I cannot communicate with people by > > IRC. I cannot get information from a web interface. > > Er...perhaps you should fix these problems, rather than allowing them > to limit and damage Emacs and every other project you are involved in. > > I will not turn my life upside down to follow your recommendations for > development tools. It's not the fact that they're my recommendations that is relevant. Don't turn this into a personality issue, it's not one. It's a question about how your choices affect the projects you are responsible for. *You* are talented enough that you can out-code most other people even when they have modern tools and you're refusing them. But this isn't true of most of your contributors -- by imposing your limits on their working methods as well as your own you're putting the projects you run under a severe handicap, damaging their ability to ship timely and high-quality code. Telling evidence for this is the very long interval between Emacs point releases and the trouble you have been having clearing your bug list. In 1997 the Emacs project's performance on these scores would have been well within the normal range, given the number and quality of developers you have -- but the world has changed, the tools are better, the typical tempo of development is faster, and in 2007 this project's performance looks really bad. Unpredictable intervals of more than a year between point releases just do not cut it these days. Here's a scale indication: Battle For Wesnoth does a point release pretty regularly every three weeks, and they're usually good releases. This is by no means exceptional performance in 2007. With decent tools and practices I'm sure we could match it. Very unfortunately, the second-order effects of poor productivity may be worse than the first-order ones. Many younger developers out there think Emacs is limping along on old ideas and old tech, its glory days long in the past. I think they're seriously wrong, because...well...I think Lisp is eternal; earlier this very evening at a holiday party I was defending Emacs against a bunch of Eclipse fans who think I'm nuts to hold onto it. But it gets harder to maintain that position as time goes by. When those Eclipse fans pointed and laughed because we're still stuck on CVS and don't have a bug tracker, what counter could I have had? They know these are bad choices and they know that I know it -- so when they write off Emacs as old, tired, and irrelevant to anything they're interested in, I find it increasingly difficult to reply. Emacs will never be irrelevant for *me*; it fits my hand too well. But a thing I was painfully reminded of just a few hours ago is that we're losing the kids (for values of "kids" up to about age 35). That means we're losing the future. And that's why, when you block your projects from using modern tools, it's a serious problem. I certainly don't expect you to "turn your life upside down" to meet my preferences -- but if you're not willing to do it so the projects that have been your life's work will remain able to attract new blood and have a healthy future, that's entirely another matter. -- Eric S. Raymond