FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Adam Spiers]

Simple feature request:

Could we make it optional whether C-c C-c is required to store a note,
on a per-template basis?  This makes most sense when it is known in
advance that the only things which might need to be changed within the
template are already taken care of via %^{foo} prompts.  So when all
the prompts have been entered, the final <enter> keystroke will store
the note immediately, rather than the user having to type <enter> C-c
C-c.

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Bastien]

Hi Adam,

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:

> Simple feature request:
>
> Could we make it optional whether C-c C-c is required to store a note,
> on a per-template basis?  This makes most sense when it is known in
> advance that the only things which might need to be changed within the
> template are already taken care of via %^{foo} prompts.  So when all
> the prompts have been entered, the final <enter> keystroke will store
> the note immediately, rather than the user having to type <enter> C-c
> C-c.

I'm not sure about this.  

1) It's convenient to be able to double-check the content of the
   *Remember* buffer before remembering it with `C-c C-c'.

2) What if there are several %^{prompt} and the user finally decided
   *not* to remember it?  If the buffer is remembered at the final 
   RET, then she won't be able to cancel the note with `C-c C-k'.

3) `C-c C-c' is really a call to a remember functionnality, not to an
   org ones.  I guess it's not good practice to override the expected
   *general* remember behavior...

What do you think?

-- 
Bastien

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Adam Spiers]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2007 at 03:22:07PM +0000, Bastien wrote:
> Hi Adam,
> 
> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:
> 
> > Simple feature request:
> >
> > Could we make it optional whether C-c C-c is required to store a note,
> > on a per-template basis?  This makes most sense when it is known in
> > advance that the only things which might need to be changed within the
> > template are already taken care of via %^{foo} prompts.  So when all
> > the prompts have been entered, the final <enter> keystroke will store
> > the note immediately, rather than the user having to type <enter> C-c
> > C-c.
> 
> I'm not sure about this.  
> 
> 1) It's convenient to be able to double-check the content of the
>    *Remember* buffer before remembering it with `C-c C-c'.

It can be yes, but I think it's really a matter of personal taste
applied on a per-template basis.  Personally I would rather minimise
keystrokes to enable rapid-fire conversion of mails into TODOs in the
most effortless manner possible, since if I screw up, I can still
easily go to the destination file and fix the new TODO there.

> 2) What if there are several %^{prompt} and the user finally decided
>    *not* to remember it?  If the buffer is remembered at the final 
>    RET, then she won't be able to cancel the note with `C-c C-k'.

C-g before the final RET, or switch to the destination file's buffer
and do an undo?

> 3) `C-c C-c' is really a call to a remember functionnality, not to an
>    org ones.  I guess it's not good practice to override the expected
>    *general* remember behavior...

I'm certainly not suggesting making it the default - only to make it
possible to enable this behaviour for selected remember templates.
But since I get SO many emails every day, I really need to be able to
apply the 2-minute rule of GTD: if the mail requires > 2 minutes of
attention, I need to be able to convert it into a TODO (linking by
message id via the org-mairix stuff) and archive it safely in the
_absolute_minimum_ number of keystrokes.  Otherwise I am constantly in
the "processing" phase of the workflow and never get to the "planning"
and "doing" phases - then the whole system fails miserably :-)

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Bastien]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:

>> 1) It's convenient to be able to double-check the content of the
>>    *Remember* buffer before remembering it with `C-c C-c'.
>
> It can be yes, but I think it's really a matter of personal taste
> applied on a per-template basis.  Personally I would rather minimise
> keystrokes to enable rapid-fire conversion of mails into TODOs in the
> most effortless manner possible, since if I screw up, I can still
> easily go to the destination file and fix the new TODO there.

Convinced.

>> 2) What if there are several %^{prompt} and the user finally decided
>>    *not* to remember it?  If the buffer is remembered at the final 
>>    RET, then she won't be able to cancel the note with `C-c C-k'.
>
> C-g before the final RET, or switch to the destination file's buffer
> and do an undo?

I'm still a bit skeptical here.  See below.

>> 3) `C-c C-c' is really a call to a remember functionnality, not to an
>>    org ones.  I guess it's not good practice to override the expected
>>    *general* remember behavior...
>
> I'm certainly not suggesting making it the default - only to make it
> possible to enable this behaviour for selected remember templates.
> But since I get SO many emails every day, I really need to be able to
> apply the 2-minute rule of GTD: if the mail requires > 2 minutes of
> attention, I need to be able to convert it into a TODO (linking by
> message id via the org-mairix stuff) and archive it safely in the
> _absolute_minimum_ number of keystrokes.  Otherwise I am constantly in
> the "processing" phase of the workflow and never get to the "planning"
> and "doing" phases - then the whole system fails miserably :-)

Okay.  Then each template would have now six elements, the last one
specifiying whether it should be automatically processed or not (being
nil by default).

Whether there are %^{prompt} constructs might be not relevant here: even
for plain templates we might want not to have to C-cC-c them for them to
be remembered, right?

Say for example that you have a template associated with the key "m" and
this key binding:

(global-set-key [(control meta r)] (lambda () (org-remember nil "m")))

The "m" template doesn't require C-cC-c.  If there is %^{prompt} you do
C-M-r then interactively enter the info at the prompt, then you're done.
If there is no %^{prompt} you just C-M-r and you're done (you don't need
to actually *see* what you want to remember...)

I think this would be nice.  But I guess you see my point about
cancelling : with a %^{prompt} it's possible to C-g, but not when there
is no %^{prompt} -- which might be a bit dangerous..  anyway, nice idea.

I hope Carsten will soon stumble on this :)

-- 
Bastien

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Adam Spiers]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 12:33:09PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:
> > I'm certainly not suggesting making it the default - only to make it
> > possible to enable this behaviour for selected remember templates.
> > But since I get SO many emails every day, I really need to be able to
> > apply the 2-minute rule of GTD: if the mail requires > 2 minutes of
> > attention, I need to be able to convert it into a TODO (linking by
> > message id via the org-mairix stuff) and archive it safely in the
> > _absolute_minimum_ number of keystrokes.  Otherwise I am constantly in
> > the "processing" phase of the workflow and never get to the "planning"
> > and "doing" phases - then the whole system fails miserably :-)
> 
> Okay.  Then each template would have now six elements, the last one
> specifiying whether it should be automatically processed or not (being
> nil by default).

Yes, that's what I had in mind too.

> Whether there are %^{prompt} constructs might be not relevant here: even
> for plain templates we might want not to have to C-cC-c them for them to
> be remembered, right?

Agreed.

> Say for example that you have a template associated with the key "m" and
> this key binding:
> 
> (global-set-key [(control meta r)] (lambda () (org-remember nil "m")))
> 
> The "m" template doesn't require C-cC-c.  If there is %^{prompt} you do
> C-M-r then interactively enter the info at the prompt, then you're done.
> If there is no %^{prompt} you just C-M-r and you're done (you don't need
> to actually *see* what you want to remember...)

Yes, exactly.

> I think this would be nice.  But I guess you see my point about
> cancelling : with a %^{prompt} it's possible to C-g, but not when there
> is no %^{prompt} -- which might be a bit dangerous..

It doesn't seem particularly dangerous to me: you still have the
option of 'undo' within the destination file, and even if you choose
not to, at worst you have a new entry which you can later delete.
It's not like you're at risk of losing existing data.

> I hope Carsten will soon stumble on this :)

/me sends good system restoration karma to Carsten over the ether :-)

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Bastien]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:

>> I think this would be nice.  But I guess you see my point about
>> cancelling : with a %^{prompt} it's possible to C-g, but not when there
>> is no %^{prompt} -- which might be a bit dangerous..
>
> It doesn't seem particularly dangerous to me: you still have the
> option of 'undo' within the destination file, and even if you choose
> not to, at worst you have a new entry which you can later delete.
> It's not like you're at risk of losing existing data.

That's right.  Thanks for triggering this, I wish I had more time to
work on this!

>> I hope Carsten will soon stumble on this :)
>
> /me sends good system restoration karma to Carsten over the ether :-)

:)

-- 
Bastien

Re: FR: make C-c C-c for storing remember notes optional

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 11, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Adam Spiers wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 12:33:09PM +0100, Bastien wrote:
>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> writes:
>>> I'm certainly not suggesting making it the default - only to make it
>>> possible to enable this behaviour for selected remember templates.
>>> But since I get SO many emails every day, I really need to be able  
>>> to
>>> apply the 2-minute rule of GTD: if the mail requires > 2 minutes of
>>> attention, I need to be able to convert it into a TODO (linking by
>>> message id via the org-mairix stuff) and archive it safely in the
>>> _absolute_minimum_ number of keystrokes.  Otherwise I am  
>>> constantly in
>>> the "processing" phase of the workflow and never get to the  
>>> "planning"
>>> and "doing" phases - then the whole system fails miserably :-)
>>
>> Okay.  Then each template would have now six elements, the last one
>> specifiying whether it should be automatically processed or not  
>> (being
>> nil by default).
>
> Yes, that's what I had in mind too.
>
>> Whether there are %^{prompt} constructs might be not relevant here:  
>> even
>> for plain templates we might want not to have to C-cC-c them for  
>> them to
>> be remembered, right?
>
> Agreed.
>
>> Say for example that you have a template associated with the key  
>> "m" and
>> this key binding:
>>
>> (global-set-key [(control meta r)] (lambda () (org-remember nil  
>> "m")))
>>
>> The "m" template doesn't require C-cC-c.  If there is %^{prompt}  
>> you do
>> C-M-r then interactively enter the info at the prompt, then you're  
>> done.
>> If there is no %^{prompt} you just C-M-r and you're done (you don't  
>> need
>> to actually *see* what you want to remember...)
>
> Yes, exactly.
>
>> I think this would be nice.  But I guess you see my point about
>> cancelling : with a %^{prompt} it's possible to C-g, but not when  
>> there
>> is no %^{prompt} -- which might be a bit dangerous..
>
> It doesn't seem particularly dangerous to me: you still have the
> option of 'undo' within the destination file, and even if you choose
> not to, at worst you have a new entry which you can later delete.
> It's not like you're at risk of losing existing data.
>
>> I hope Carsten will soon stumble on this :)
>
> /me sends good system restoration karma to Carsten over the ether :-)
>

Thanks, I am getting there.

God ideas in this thread,  I will put them in.  I guess the best way
would be to have

  %^{prompt|default|completion2|....}

to define prompt, default value and a completion table, and then
to keep a per-prompt history.

- Carsten