From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Post-22.1 development? Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 00:58:55 +0100 Message-ID: <20070607235855.GB1264@muc.de> References: <878xb05ras.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <864plnorgn.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> <85ps4ap0kh.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <18024.30252.846428.246125@kahikatea.snap.net.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1181255637 27981 80.91.229.12 (7 Jun 2007 22:33:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 22:33:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Nick Roberts , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Sean O'Rourke Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 08 00:33:56 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1HwQYF-0005uR-T1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:33:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQYF-0006f2-1b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQYC-0006en-GQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:52 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQYA-0006eb-Vo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:51 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HwQYA-0006eY-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:50 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1] helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HwQYA-0006DJ-4d for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Jun 2007 18:33:50 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 8805 invoked by uid 3782); 7 Jun 2007 22:33:47 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p54A3E72D.dip.t-dialin.net [84.163.231.45]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 08 Jun 2007 00:33:43 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 4538 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Jun 2007 23:58:55 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:72445 Archived-At: Evening, Sean! On Thu, Jun 07, 2007 at 03:17:33PM -0700, Sean O'Rourke wrote: > Nick Roberts writes: > > When there is choice I don't see how they can be > > counterproductive; presumably you can just use Carbon Emacs. > I do use Carbon Emacs. But there's always risk in being part of a > silent minority, since the options of interest to such a minority are > more likely to be removed for the sake of simplicity, etc. (see below). I use Emacs on a 48 line Linux tty. RMS also uses a tty. So does Thi, and I think one or two other Emacs developers. Uncluttered editing on Emacs isn't going to disappear any time soon. > > > I already have a number of lines in my .emacs disabling various > > > bits of modernization (e.g. tooltip-mode, tool-bar-mode, > > > blink-cursor-mode, enormous fringes on both sides), > > Enormous is an exaggeration - they're one character wide - and since > > you _can_ disable them I see no problem. > True, but IIRC it was only possible to disable the fringes after > a number of people complained. And "enormous" is relative -- for > me at the time, the fringe made it impossible to have two > non-overlapping, 80-column frames side-by-side with my preferred > font. The unsuppressability of the fringes (introduced in Emacs 21) was IMAO a big mistake. It was one of the very few "enhancements" in Emacs which couldn't be turned off. I think it's safe to say that there is absolutely NO new feature which somebody won't hate. The help fora were inundated in 2001 by people wanting to turn off the fringes. > > I don't see these features simply as modernisation. I find the > > toolbar useful for debugging and the fringe displays breakpoint > > icons. I imagine other people have other uses for them. > I have since re-added a half-width left fringe for debugging > arrows. I would prefer that it only appear when the arrow was > needed, but I now prefer it to the old text arrow. > > I think a bit of flexibility is needed on both sides. This > > could get blown up out of proportion, but I think it should > > really be a small issue. > Agreed. I'm happy as long as I can disable these things in my > .emacs. I just thought that there are probably quite a few of us > out here who prefer doing things the "old way," that this very > preference is part of what keeps us using Emacs rather than > Eclipse or something, and that it's important to remind everyone > that we exist. Agreed on all points. -- Alan Mackenzie.