From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info tutorial is out of date Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:54:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <200607170354.k6H3slOj025701@jane.dms.auburn.edu> References: <87r70l2xza.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1153108558 9994 80.91.229.2 (17 Jul 2006 03:55:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 03:55:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: karl@freefriends.org, belanger@truman.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 17 05:55:55 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2KCm-0003Sd-J1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Jul 2006 05:55:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2KCm-0004ZG-5c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:55:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2KCb-0004Z1-Aj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:55:25 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1G2KCV-0004Yp-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:55:24 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1G2KCV-0004Ym-LW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:55:19 -0400 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1G2KF5-000059-KV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:57:59 -0400 Original-Received: from jane.dms.auburn.edu (jane.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.201]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k6H3tIbW029086; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:55:18 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: from jane.dms.auburn.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jane.dms.auburn.edu (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k6H3smn9025704; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:54:48 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by jane.dms.auburn.edu (8.13.4+Sun/8.13.3/Submit) id k6H3slOj025701; Sun, 16 Jul 2006 22:54:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: jane.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca In-reply-to: (message from Stefan Monnier on Sun, 16 Jul 2006 23:09:47 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:57150 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier wrote: I think the best option to satisfy both camps is to end the tutorial with a section about "how to use Emacs more efficiently" where we describe key bindings for those operations that can easily be accomplished with arrow keys, mice, menu-bars, scroll-bars, you name it. I believe that there is some confusion here. I have not followed this thread in detail, but it seems to be obviously about the Info manual, not about the Emacs manual. The Info manual tries to teach the user how to use the Info system, not how to use Emacs. Unless there has been a policy change, Info is meant to replace the man pages in the GNU system. That is, people would do `info find' instead of `man find' from a command line. This brings up the standalone Info reader and should be usable by GNU users who use, say, vim as their editor and do not even know how to use Emacs. `h' brings up the Info manual not just in Emacs Info, but also in the standalone Info reader. Of course, it must tell people how to use the standalone Info reader, because for some GNU users this is the only one they are going to use and even for Emacs users, it sometimes will be more convenient to use the standalone version when they are in an xterm. Of course, Emacs users must also be able to learn how to use Emacs Info. Emacs Info is too close to the standalone Info to justify two separate manuals, especially since many people may want to learn how to use both readers and we should not force them to read two manuals most of whose contents just duplicate each other. The Info reader has no menu bar and no Emacs style header line. Scroll bars and mice do not seem to work with it. Sincerely, Luc.