From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Paul Michael Reilly Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Right Alt/Meta keys on Windows systems Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:08:12 -0500 Message-ID: <200512290608.jBT68CnK026345@copa.pajato.com> References: <200512281541.jBSFfXUQ013499@copa.pajato.com> <200512282155.22035.pogonyshev@gmx.net> <200512282231.19843.pogonyshev@gmx.net> <200512290000.jBT007bc021185@copa.pajato.com> Reply-To: pmr@pajato.com NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1135836516 10729 80.91.229.2 (29 Dec 2005 06:08:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 06:08:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: pogonyshev@gmx.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 29 07:08:34 2005 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Erqxl-0006yH-Gc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 07:08:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Erqz6-0007oX-Aa for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:09:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Erqyu-0007oI-D6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:09:44 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Erqyt-0007o6-TK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:09:44 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Erqyt-0007o3-Ni for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:09:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [209.113.133.197] (helo=copa.pajato.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1Erqz7-0005gs-Jf; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:09:57 -0500 Original-Received: from copa.pajato.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by copa.pajato.com (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id jBT68CTw026348; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:08:12 -0500 Original-Received: (from pmr@localhost) by copa.pajato.com (8.13.4/8.13.4/Submit) id jBT68CnK026345; Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:08:12 -0500 Original-To: Eli Zaretskii In-reply-to: (message from Eli Zaretskii on Thu, 29 Dec 2005 06:45:16 +0200) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-1.6 (copa.pajato.com [127.0.0.1]); Thu, 29 Dec 2005 01:08:12 -0500 (EST) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:48479 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii > > > Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:00:07 -0500 > > From: Paul Michael Reilly > > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org, eliz@gnu.org > > > > Paul seems to be saying that the right Alt key has a compelling > > function for some set of Users (temporary keyboard layout disable) > > Paul was talking about GNU/Linux systems, not about MS-Windows. I understood him to be saying that his Windoze issue also should apply to X-Windows. His Windoze issue, as I interpret it, is about the use of the right Alt key to temporarily force the keyboard into a U.S. English locale so that a a key available in the U.S. English locale but overridden in the other locale can be made available. Suffice it to say that this is a related issue (to the use of right Alt as a Meta modifier key) to the extent that there are two functions that want to use the right Alt key. There is even a larger issue here. That being that Microsoft or any other major player in the Windoze world can render some Emacs convention (such as using the right Alt key as a Meta modifier) obsolete, much to our chagrin. This also applies to Lennort's use of the left and right Windows keys (aka "alt option"). So again I tip my hat to Richard for punting on this issue. It deserves more discussion and attention, both for the Alt keys and the Windows keys. And to make matters worse, I managed to scrounge around and dug up access to a Windows/2000 system and, lo and behold, both Alt keys operated as Meta modifier keys. So my issue, so far, is a Windows/XP only issue. My gut feel is that customization has to solve this problem, along with a generous helping of C code to modify the behavior of keyboard drivers via Registry settings. Or some third party software tool. Yuck. Which is to say that the cure is looking more painful than the problem. Hopefully someone will suggest a simpler solution. I will try once more to clarify the issues as I understand them: 1) There are two camps who want a particular behavior from the right Alt key on a Windows system. I believe these behaviors are mutually exclusive: a) Right Alt key is a temporary locale modifier. b) Right Alt key is a Meta modifier key. 2) Some who want the temporary locale modifier on the right Alt key also believe that X-Windows systems should behave similarly. 3) The Emacs community is at risk of having well established conventions "stolen" [there is actually a better word than stolen but it is not coming to mind] by up-and-coming Windows UI conventions. 4) Various flavors of Windows, past, present and future, do or will exhibit different behaviors. > > Meanwhile I am very curious to know how Eli managed to get his system > > to provide both left and right Meta modifiers from the Alt keys. If > > memory serves, when I last used Emacs on a Windows/2000/cygwin system, > > I did not have this problem. But a freshly installed Windows/XP > > system on a Dell PC with a Logictech natural keyboard does exhibit the > > behavior. Windows/XP has a very complex Locale setting mechanism in > > the control panel. Perhaps this is where one needs to select a > > different locale, but it is not at all intuitively obvious how to do > > this such that the right Alt key will map to a Meta modifier. Knowing > > what locale settings Eli is using might help some. > > Tell me what to look at on my machine and what to report, and I will > tell you what I have here. (I simply do not know what information > defines the ``Windows locale''.) If you are running Windows/95/98/NT/2000, as is my guess, then your Alt key behavior is not relevant to this discussion any more. If you are running Windows/XP then you should go to the Control Panel and select "Regional and Language Options" and let us know where any pulldowns on any tabs show anything but "United States (English)". For example if you use a Hebrew input method that just happens to make the right Alt key work like a Meta modifier, that would be good to know. But it would also be inconsistent with my understanding of Paul's issue. :-) -pmr