* should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? @ 2005-04-13 1:41 Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-13 2:08 ` Luc Teirlinck ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-13 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw) It seems that xterm-mouse-mode is on by default now. xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least IMO): - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc. - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. --dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 1:41 should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-13 2:08 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-13 4:11 ` Miles Bader ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-13 2:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. I was the one who enabled Xterm Mouse mode by default. But I did it on request, because I knew how to do it without confusing Custom. I personally recommended against it, because of problems similar to the ones you cite, as well as other problems. Obviously, I could easily revert my changes if Richard would change his mind on the issue. Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 1:41 should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-13 2:08 ` Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-13 4:11 ` Miles Bader 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 7:40 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-04-13 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel On 4/13/05, Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> wrote: > A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to > turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. FWIW, the "native" xterm mouse behavior can still be used even when emacs xterm-mouse-mode is enabled, by using the shift-key in conjunction with the mouse. [I suppose many users will not know this however.] -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 1:41 should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-13 2:08 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-13 4:11 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-13 18:54 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-13 23:23 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-14 7:40 ` Kai Großjohann 3 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-13 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least IMO): - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc. - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. I don't follow the logic. While the failure to implement some mouse features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement none than to implement some? I don't see it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-13 18:54 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-13 23:23 ` Luc Teirlinck 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-13 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > xterm-mouse-mode is missing some very useful functionality (at least > IMO): > - it is not possible to double-click to select a word/line/etc. > - it is not possible to select text with the mouse in emacs and then > use mouse-2 to paste in another xterm, or emacs. How would you copy > text from an emacs running in an ssh session in an xterm? > > A lot of users use these features, so IMO it is not a good idea to > turn on xterm-mouse-mode by default at this point. > > I don't follow the logic. While the failure to implement some mouse > features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement > none than to implement some? I don't see it. The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. Yes, it is still possible to use shift-mouse to access the normal xterm copy/paste functionality, but there are few problems with that: - as Miles said, most users would not know about this - makes the xterm running emacs behave inconsistently with all other xterms one might use at the same time - using the mouse and the keyboard at the same time is not very convenient --dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 18:54 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 19:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-14 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. Why would they not be able to do this? It isn't obvious. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-14 19:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-14 23:31 ` David Kastrup 2005-04-15 15:11 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-14 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm > to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another > xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse > not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. > > Why would they not be able to do this? > It isn't obvious. Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 19:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-14 23:31 ` David Kastrup 2005-04-15 15:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2005-04-14 23:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: rms, emacs-devel Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu> writes: > Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > > > The argument is like this: a lot of users ONLY use the mouse in an xterm > > to select text and then use mouse-2 to paste it in another > > xterm/another application. Not being able to do this makes the mouse > > not very useful, and the user would blame emacs for this. > > > > Why would they not be able to do this? > > It isn't obvious. > > Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is > active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is > possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in > the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. Isn't there a way to reoffer the selection? -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 19:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-14 23:31 ` David Kastrup @ 2005-04-15 15:11 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-15 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. I did not realize it had this disadvantage. It is a serious one. I think we should put the default back to off. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-15 15:11 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts 2005-04-15 21:26 ` Dan Nicolaescu ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Nick Roberts @ 2005-04-15 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Dan Nicolaescu, emacs-devel > Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is > active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is > possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in > the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. > > I did not realize it had this disadvantage. It is a serious one. But, X selection is still available using the shift key. > I think we should put the default back to off. Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there. Nick ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts @ 2005-04-15 21:26 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-15 21:38 ` Miles Bader 2005-04-16 17:49 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-15 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: rms, emacs-devel Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes: > > Because the a selection done with the mouse when xterm-mouse-mode is > > active is not available to X. It is only available to Emacs, so it is > > possible to use the mouse to copy between 2 emacs windows running in > > the same terminal frame, but X know nothing about the selection. > > > > I did not realize it had this disadvantage. It is a serious one. > > But, X selection is still available using the shift key. Well, that is the problem, that the selection is available _by default_ only when using the shift key. This makes emacs inconsistent with the rest of the applications a user normally runs. And it is inconsistent in one of the very useful (and used) functions. > > I think we should put the default back to off. > > Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm > features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so > it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there. But the price to pay in inconsistency and inconvenience seems to big... --dan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts 2005-04-15 21:26 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-15 21:38 ` Miles Bader 2005-04-16 17:49 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2005-04-15 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Dan Nicolaescu, rms, emacs-devel On 4/16/05, Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> wrote: > Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within > Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that > Emacs gets priority there. This is _very_ dependent on your style of editing. I've tried xterm-mouse-mode on and off, and I find I prefer "off", largely for the reasons stated in this thread [the default xterm "interapp cut-n-paste" behavior is more useful; the xterm-mouse-mode behavior generally quite clunky feeling, esp. the lack of region dragging]. I might feel differently If it were possible to have a sort of "clicks-only" half-xterm-mouse-mode, or to fix the misfeatures of the current "full" mouse-mode [e.g., get drag events for region dragging; contact X server for cut-n-paste even in -nw mode] -- but neither seems practical, because they would require changes in xterm (and a fair amount of effort to implement for uncertain gain). -Miles -- Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts 2005-04-15 21:26 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-15 21:38 ` Miles Bader @ 2005-04-16 17:49 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-17 2:21 ` Luc Teirlinck 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-16 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, emacs-devel Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there. It is a big incompatibility with usual xterm functionality, and it isn't very compatible with non-xterm Emacs functionality. That's too problematical to be on by default. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-16 17:49 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-17 2:21 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-17 19:19 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-17 2:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: nickrob, dann, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: Its a question of giving priority to Emacs features or Xterm features. Within Emacs, the mouse is used more often for Emacs so it seems more natural that Emacs gets priority there. It is a big incompatibility with usual xterm functionality, and it isn't very compatible with non-xterm Emacs functionality. That's too problematical to be on by default. Shall I go ahead and undo the part of my changes that enabled it by default? Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-17 2:21 ` Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-17 19:19 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-17 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: nickrob, dann, emacs-devel Shall I go ahead and undo the part of my changes that enabled it by default? Yes, please do. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-13 18:54 ` Dan Nicolaescu @ 2005-04-13 23:23 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-13 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: I don't follow the logic. While the failure to implement some mouse features is clearly a drawback, why would it be better to implement none than to implement some? I don't see it. Did you try out Xterm Mouse mode for any prolonged period of time, performing non-trivial tasks? Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT functionality. That is, needs to have read either the xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'. Otherwise, the most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session). Even knowing about SHIFT, it is a real nuisance. The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse, even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing, except to knowledgeable users. Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 23:23 ` Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 22:58 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-04-15 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-14 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, emacs-devel Did you try out Xterm Mouse mode for any prolonged period of time, performing non-trivial tasks? No, I have never used it. I normally use Emacs on text consoles, and the last thing I want to do is use the mouse. It is supposed to make Emacs handle the mouse in the usual way when running under an xterm, right? Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT functionality. That is, needs to have read either the xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'. Otherwise, the most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session). I don't understand why that should be so. Would you please explain? Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way? The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse, even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing, except to knowledgeable users. Why is this worse that with Xterm Mouse mode turned off? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-14 22:58 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-04-15 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2005-04-14 22:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, Luc Teirlinck, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way? It can't, since Emacs does not know how to contact the X server. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 22:58 ` Andreas Schwab @ 2005-04-15 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-15 1:42 ` Luc Teirlinck 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-15 1:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, emacs-devel No, I have never used it. I normally use Emacs on text consoles, and the last thing I want to do is use the mouse. It is supposed to make Emacs handle the mouse in the usual way when running under an xterm, right? To me, the most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking feels a lot more "usual" with Xterm Mouse mode _disabled_. Anybody who uses Xterm Mouse mode _needs_ to know about the SHIFT functionality. That is, needs to have read either the xterm-mouse-mode docstring or `(emacs)XTerm Mouse'. Otherwise, the most basic mouse functionality, killing and yanking, does not work anymore (except _inside_ your Emacs session). I don't understand why that should be so. Would you please explain? Doesn't Xterm Mouse mode communicate selections to X in the usual way? No, Andreas already explained why it could not possibly. In `emacs -nw', Emacs does not communicate with X. When running on Emacs on a remote machine over a slow connection, Emacs communication with X is _excessively_ slow (that is why one runs the remote Emacs with `emacs -nw' in the first place). The lack of the usual visual feedback (Emacs can not track the mouse, even with Xterm Mouse mode enabled), can also be very confusing, except to knowledgeable users. Why is this worse that with Xterm Mouse mode turned off? If Xterm Mouse mode is off and you are (for instance) dragging the mouse, the region selected for copying gets highlighted while you are dragging. If Xterm mouse mode is on, the user can not see the region being selected, there is no highlighting until you release the mouse. Moreover, point does not get updated fast enough. So if you click away from point and start dragging, you have to remember the other bound of the region (where you first clicked), because you only see it on release of the mouse. Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-15 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-15 1:42 ` Luc Teirlinck 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Luc Teirlinck @ 2005-04-15 1:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: dann, rms, emacs-devel >From my previous message: If Xterm mouse mode is on, the user can not see the region being selected, there is no highlighting until you release the mouse. Unless you hold down the SHIFT key, of course, because then you get the xterm functionality. Sincerely, Luc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-13 1:41 should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? Dan Nicolaescu ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman @ 2005-04-14 7:40 ` Kai Großjohann 2005-04-14 9:31 ` Stephan Stahl 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Kai Großjohann @ 2005-04-14 7:40 UTC (permalink / raw) Currently, when xterm mouse mode is on, unshifted clicks do something special, and shifted clicks do as if xterm mouse mode was off. How about providing an option to reverse this? Then shifted clicks would access the special xterm mouse mode function, and unshifted clicks would do as if xterm mouse mode was off. Kai ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? 2005-04-14 7:40 ` Kai Großjohann @ 2005-04-14 9:31 ` Stephan Stahl 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Stephan Stahl @ 2005-04-14 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: emacs-devel Hi Kai. kai@emptydomain.de (Kai Großjohann) said: > How about providing an option to reverse this? Then shifted clicks > would access the special xterm mouse mode function, and unshifted > clicks would do as if xterm mouse mode was off. This is not possible to do from within emacs because it is xterm that controlls this aspect.. -- Stephan Stahl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2005-04-17 19:19 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2005-04-13 1:41 should xterm-mouse-mode be on by default? Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-13 2:08 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-13 4:11 ` Miles Bader 2005-04-13 18:31 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-13 18:54 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 19:08 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-14 23:31 ` David Kastrup 2005-04-15 15:11 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-15 20:38 ` Nick Roberts 2005-04-15 21:26 ` Dan Nicolaescu 2005-04-15 21:38 ` Miles Bader 2005-04-16 17:49 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-17 2:21 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-17 19:19 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-13 23:23 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-14 19:03 ` Richard Stallman 2005-04-14 22:58 ` Andreas Schwab 2005-04-15 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-15 1:42 ` Luc Teirlinck 2005-04-14 7:40 ` Kai Großjohann 2005-04-14 9:31 ` Stephan Stahl
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