From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customize buttons that change user's custom fileshouldaskforconfirmation Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:09:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <200502201709.j1KH9fT02626@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <00e301c509c1$9c761690$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> <200502152320.j1FNKd310641@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200502172257.j1HMvJN10856@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200502181412.j1IECkj14736@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <01e301c51729$ae672360$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1108919502 18717 80.91.229.2 (20 Feb 2005 17:11:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:11:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, snogglethorpe@gmail.com, storm@cua.dk Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 20 18:11:41 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2uc9-0001Cf-AB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:11:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2usv-0006Rd-S7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:28:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D2usW-0006MC-0y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:28:20 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D2usR-0006KE-TA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:28:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2usR-0006Ib-N4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:28:15 -0500 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D2ucd-0006jc-MF; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:11:55 -0500 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1KHBg9N010359; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:11:42 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id j1KH9fT02626; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:09:41 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se In-reply-to: <01e301c51729$ae672360$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> (lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33646 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33646 People can put in these Gnome style whole buffer buttons that Kim proposed. That is OK, I do not care. But _why_ on earth does anybody want to _hide_ that small State button, that barely takes any space? How can this _confuse_ people? There is a help echo saying "Change the state of this item". If the user is not used to customize individual items, he can just ignore the button. If the help echo is not clear enough, make it clearer. (Also, the names of some items when you activate the State button could be made more self-explanatory.) The names "novice" and "expert" are used in a very incorrect way. The difference we are talking about has _nothing_ to do with how long you have been using Emacs or Custom. The two kinds of users we are talking about are non-inquisitive users and inquisitive users. Non-inquisitive users will just ignore he State button, like they ignore anything else they are not used to. They will remain novices forever. Novices at Custom, novices at Emacs, novices at everything they use. Inquisitive users will say "Wow, interesting! That is something new! I never saw this in other customization interfaces. Let me try this out!." Then they will play with it, and realize that this is a _much_ better interface than the Gnome one. For instance, unlike the eternal novices, they will be able to undo mistakes by setting individual options to current or standard, which is often needed. They will very quickly become experts, not only at using Custom, but at using Emacs. Please, do not impede inquisitiveness. Do not put obstacles in the way of people who are willing to learn new things, by hiding stuff from them. Definitely do not hide the individual state messages, although they can be made into single word items with help echos. This info is needed. Sincerely, Luc.