From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customize buttons that change user's custom fileshouldaskforconfirmation Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:42:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <200502191542.j1JFgvi25098@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <00e301c509c1$9c761690$0200a8c0@sedrcw11488> <200502152320.j1FNKd310641@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200502172257.j1HMvJN10856@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200502181412.j1IECkj14736@raven.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1108829224 24439 80.91.229.2 (19 Feb 2005 16:07:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 16:07:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: abraham@dina.kvl.dk, lennart.borgman.073@student.lu.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, storm@cua.dk, snogglethorpe@gmail.com, drew.adams@oracle.com, miles@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 19 17:07:03 2005 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2X8C-0005xw-3M for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:06:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2XOl-0005zT-9G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:24:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D2XNE-0005ae-G6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:22:30 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1D2XN6-0005Wi-Ns for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:22:21 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1D2XN4-0005Sf-9t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:22:18 -0500 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D2WnC-0001VF-TB; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:45:15 -0500 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1JFis9N006043; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:44:54 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id j1JFgvi25098; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:42:57 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Sat, 19 Feb 2005 04:44:26 -0500) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org X-MailScanner-To: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:33628 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:33628 Richard Stallman wrote: This means rejecting the goal that it should be able to do "whatever the user might want to do". I was only talking about a user who wanted to look at the choices he had in a Value Menu (and maybe read their docstrings), did not want to save or set anything, and forgot to reset the Value Menu to his usual choice, because he got distracted by looking at another option, which he then saved (together with the wrong Value Menu value). What do you mean by a "widget" value? The value that would be saved if one saves. In my usage, these often get changed to values I have no intention of setting or saving for two reasons. The first one is clicking on Value Menu buttons for information purposes. The second is making inadvertent edits in various ways, say, by not holding down a control or meta key long enough. (I am clumsy, so this happens regularly.) You do not even realize you made these edits. If I save an individual option, I carefully check for typos before I save. But carefully checking an entire long buffer is cumbersome. With the whole buffer buttons it is easy to save values which the user does not even realize he edited. From then on strange things happen. The only way to figure out what is going on is to study the `custom-set-variables' form in your .emacs. We need to design a simple interface that is easy for beginners to understand, so that they are not afraid to use it. If Custom is redesigned to use only whole buffer buttons, then I will be afraid to use it. I would personally quit using it and customize everything through Lisp. One could print a warning message whenever clicking on the whole buffer buttons would save more than one option and ask for confirmation in that case. That would be a bare minimum. But once I get warned, I have to figure out the problems and correct them before I can save the option I want. We could offer to undo all edits made in the buffer, as Lennart suggested, but then I lose the edits I want just as well as those I do not want. All this complexity completely disappears if one uses per option buttons. We all seem to agree that we nearly always want to save only one option at a time. So I do not see how designing an interface forcing people to save an entire long buffer all at once, and hence be super careful before saving anything, makes sense. Sincerely, Luc.