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* Re: terminal escapes in Info files?
@ 2003-10-28  1:26 Karl Berry
  2003-10-28 10:51 ` Alper Ersoy
  2003-10-29 19:02 ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-10-28  1:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: emacs-devel, rms, dirt

    > if we want to add font markup to info fmt, let's not use something as
    > ugly as terminal escape squences.  please design something clean!

Since Info is inherently limited to what can be displayed on a terminal,
it seems like ANSI escape sequences are as reasonable specification of
the capabilities as anything else?  Easy to implement, too.  Admittedly
the ESC [ blah blah sequences are ugly, though.

    How about using what Enriched-Text mode uses in Emacs?  See
    etc/enriched.doc in the Emacs distro.

That is indeed a lot cleaner (also quite a bit more verbose :).  Thanks
for mentioning it, I wasn't aware of it.

It seems using this would imply a new non-backward-compatible output
format, though, since every literal < needs to be escaped in enriched
format, and existing info readers don't know how to do that.

Using the ugly terminal escape sequences, on the other hand, is
backward-compatible because I'm sure that no real document has literal
terminal escape sequences (Texinfo hasn't had @ctrl for years ...).

Hmm.  As always, it seems there is no easy answer.

Thanks,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-04 16:06 Karl Berry
  2003-12-13 11:13 ` Alper Ersoy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-04 16:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: epameinondas, juri, nferrier, dirt, bob, emacs-devel

    > [For testing this extensively, it would be nice if "makeinfo
    > my-texinfo-source.texi" would produce XML instead of info format,
    > dependend on the value of some environment variable. 

Ok.  This seems like it should be a very easy change to make.  Alper
(cc-d here) or I will do it for the next release.

(Alper, I'm intentionally leaving out all the reams of context.  It's in
the emacs-devel mailing list archives if you care.)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-04 16:44 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-04 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, bob, teirllm, nferrier, eliz, emacs-devel

    straight-forward to make it work with info XML and I have offered to
    do that.

That sounds like a useful thing to do.  Thanks.

I don't see any problem with doing it in the Info reader as soon as you
like (not that there's any super urgency), without worrying about what
is or isn't happening with Emacs.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-04 16:44 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-04 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, bob, teirllm, nferrier, eliz, emacs-devel

    So people who want it can put XML files into their /usr/local/info

If we start installing XML info files, we need to do better than just
stuff them into one huge /usr/local/info.

I suggest $(infodir)/LL/MANUAL/MANUAL.xml
for instance
/usr/local/info/en/emacs/emacs.xml

1) We want to do a better job of supporting Texinfo documents in
   different languages.
2) We want to allow for including a manual's subsidiary runtime files --
   namely images -- with the manual, so further processors have a chance
   to find them.
3) HTML files could be installed there too.

I'd actually like to install info files in the same way, but that's a
different story.

Perhaps the extension should not be .xml, which is too generic after
all.  .txml?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-04 17:38 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-04 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, epameinondas, nferrier, bob, eliz, emacs-devel

Thank you for the concise and clear summary, Luc.

As far as the general issue goes, as I've said before, I completely
agree that building a new Texinfo-XML reader inside Emacs is a better
approach than attempting to remedy the deficiencies of Info format on
bitmapped displayed by kludges on top of the existing Info format.

For example, reformatting paragraphs, hiding note references, printing
different markup in different colors, and all the rest (let alone
putting @ifinfo into the source). 

Although I totally appreciate all the efforts to bring Info into the
world of bitmapped displays, doing it through Info format just does not
seem viable to me.  That is not what Info was designed for, or what it
is good at.

And, I think we all agree that Info format as it currently stands needs
to coexist with whatever new reader/technology is built, in a compatible
way.  There are almost 20 years of Info installations out there, we
cannot render :) them useless in new versions of the software.

Regards,
k

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-05 17:31 Karl Berry
  2003-12-05 23:08 ` Kim F. Storm
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-05 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, epameinondas, teirllm, nferrier, bob, eliz, emacs-devel

    @code 341 345
    @xref 359 371 378 389    (list each section in the *Note .... output)

I suppose it could be done, but
(1) I see no advantage over the XML output;
(2) It seems significantly harder to read, write, and debug than XML; and
(3) the XML output is already there.  This would require significant new
    effort in makeinfo, without adding commensurate value.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread
* Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD
@ 2003-12-06  0:15 Karl Berry
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 143+ messages in thread
From: Karl Berry @ 2003-12-06  0:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: juri, epameinondas, teirllm, nferrier, bob, eliz, emacs-devel

    If XML is already there, then why do we discuss this issue at all?

I have no idea.  As far as I can see, the discussion is going in
circles.  We seem to be right back where we started a zillion messages ago.

If someone wants to write a NEW info reader in emacs, based on
makeinfo's xml output (which has existed for a couple of years, and is
being actively maintained), please do.

That is, as I understand it, the whole point -- allow Emacs on a bitmap
display to use nice fonts, rebreak paragraphs, and all that other good
stuff.  To do that, it needs a structure-based representation of the
Texinfo document.

And that is precisely what the XML output gives you, the structure,
unlike the Info (and DVI) output, which is virtually entirely physical.
(HTML is somewhere in between.)  Retrofitting structure into Info format
is going to end up being equivalent to the XML, except MUCH more painful
to define and deal with -- in my opinion, of course.  So I don't want to
spend time doing that.

And, the point is not to "replace" the current character-based info
reader, as rms, bob, I, and many others have said many times.  I can't
imagine why the two cannot peacefully coexist, and users will have the
choice.

Alternatively, Nic and Bob have already advanced a proposal to make Info
work better with web browsers.  So, a better-than-w3 web browser in
Emacs could achieve the same goal.  (By saying this, I know I risk a
rerun of the whole thread ...)

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 143+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2004-09-02 19:02 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 143+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2003-10-28  1:26 terminal escapes in Info files? Karl Berry
2003-10-28 10:51 ` Alper Ersoy
2003-10-28 13:48   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-10-30 10:42     ` Alper Ersoy
2003-11-10 13:01       ` HTML as info format (was: terminal escapes in Info files?) Oliver Scholz
2003-11-17 13:29         ` HTML as info format Juri Linkov
2003-11-18  7:01           ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-18 14:54             ` Changes to Texinfo DTD [Was: Re: HTML as info format] Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-18 15:59               ` Changes to Texinfo DTD Oliver Scholz
2003-11-18 21:03                 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-18 21:18                   ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-19 12:38                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-19 13:18                       ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-20 10:37                   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 16:55                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-20 18:19                       ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 20:32                         ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-20 22:05                           ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-20 22:51                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-21  2:13                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-21  8:49                               ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-21  2:10                           ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-21  7:57                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24  7:57                               ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24  9:32                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-22 21:19                           ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-22 21:41                             ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-22 21:42                               ` Miles Bader
2003-11-22 21:56                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24  7:55                                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24  9:25                                     ` Why XSLT in Emacs Lisp? (was Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD) Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24 13:04                                       ` Why XSLT in Emacs Lisp? Alex Schroeder
2003-11-23 17:14                                 ` Changes to Texinfo DTD Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-24  7:54                                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-24 16:19                                   ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-24 22:32                                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-11-24 22:31                                       ` Miles Bader
2003-11-25  5:22                                     ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-25 16:48                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 21:59                                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-25 23:32                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 19:54                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-11-25 21:48                                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-11-26  1:08                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02  6:42                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  1:47                                       ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-03 16:18                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  2:53                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  7:58                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  2:54                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  8:04                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  9:39                                               ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 11:48                                                 ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 15:35                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  8:19                                             ` Oliver Scholz
2003-12-04 13:49                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-05  0:11                                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-05  9:49                                               ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-06 16:11                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2003-12-06 17:11                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-09 16:47                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2003-12-10  7:25                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-04  3:35                                           ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-04  8:12                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-11-22 23:59                               ` Stefan Monnier
2003-11-23  0:05                                 ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-23 14:16                                   ` Oliver Scholz
2003-11-23 15:11                                     ` Nic Ferrier
2003-11-24 16:22                               ` Richard Stallman
2003-11-20 18:24                       ` Karl Eichwalder
2003-11-24 16:23                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-02  7:08           ` HTML as info format Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-01 10:38             ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2003-12-02  3:34               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02 10:54                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-02  4:43               ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-02 10:18               ` Info enhancements (was: Re: HTML as info format) Juri Linkov
2003-12-02 17:27                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-02 19:26                   ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03  5:38                     ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2003-12-03 13:27                       ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03 15:46                         ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-12-20  5:34                         ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-20 14:57                           ` Karl Berry
2003-12-03 17:16                     ` Info enhancements (was: Re: HTML as info format) Richard Stallman
2003-12-02 21:22               ` Info enhancements Reiner Steib
2003-12-03  3:54                 ` `s' (regex) search [was Re: Info enhancements] Harry Putnam
2003-12-03  5:47                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  9:42                     ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-03 11:31                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03 11:56                         ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-03 16:27                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03 19:13                             ` Harry Putnam
2003-12-04  8:34                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-03  5:04                 ` Info enhancements Juri Linkov
2004-09-01 16:42                   ` Reiner Steib
2004-09-01 20:55                     ` Juri Linkov
2004-09-02 19:02                       ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-03  0:33               ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-03  6:43                 ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-12  2:08               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-12 14:24                 ` Karl Berry
2003-12-12 17:14                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-12 19:23                     ` Stefan Monnier
2003-12-13 10:12                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-13 23:15                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-12 21:38                   ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-13 15:17                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-16  2:14                       ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-17  3:28                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-18  3:03                           ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-18 16:59                             ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-19 14:03                             ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-12-20  5:27                               ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-13 15:48                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-15  2:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-15  6:01                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-12-15 20:06                     ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-16  3:00                     ` Juri Linkov
2003-12-16 12:12                       ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-17  3:28                         ` Richard Stallman
2003-12-17  3:28                       ` Richard Stallman
2004-07-01 21:07               ` non-blocking socket io: data limit on read? Nic Ferrier
2003-10-28 16:19   ` terminal escapes in Info files? Stefan Monnier
2003-10-29 19:02     ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:47       ` David Kastrup
2003-10-29 21:43         ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-29 22:39           ` David Kastrup
2003-10-30  6:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-30 18:00         ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:01   ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:45     ` Alper Ersoy
2003-10-29 19:42       ` Eli Zaretskii
2003-10-30 18:00       ` Richard Stallman
2003-10-29 19:02 ` Richard Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-12-04 16:06 Changes to Texinfo DTD Karl Berry
2003-12-13 11:13 ` Alper Ersoy
2003-12-04 16:44 Karl Berry
2003-12-04 16:44 Karl Berry
2003-12-04 17:38 Karl Berry
2003-12-05 17:31 Karl Berry
2003-12-05 23:08 ` Kim F. Storm
2003-12-06  0:15 Karl Berry

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