From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Info-scroll-prefer-subnodes default in Emacs. Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:55:03 -0500 (CDT) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200306240255.h5O2t3T14984@eel.dms.auburn.edu> References: <200306200119.h5K1Jic11729@eel.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1056423492 21320 80.91.224.249 (24 Jun 2003 02:58:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 02:58:12 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 24 04:58:09 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Udzr-0005Um-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 04:57:27 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19Ue3C-0001zg-00 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:00:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Udyj-0001dE-ON for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:56:17 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19UdyE-0001cu-2b for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19UdyC-0001cf-Ew for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:45 -0400 Original-Received: from manatee.dms.auburn.edu ([131.204.53.104]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19UdxH-0001WQ-CR; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:54:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eel.dms.auburn.edu (eel.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.108]) h5O2shoc028467; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:54:43 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by eel.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id h5O2t3T14984; Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:55:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: eel.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (message from Richard Stallman on Sat, 21 Jun 2003 00:56:19 -0400) Original-cc: karl@freefriends.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:15199 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:15199 Richard Stallman wrote: Does just setting Info-scroll-prefer-subnodes to nil give entirely the same behavior as in stand-alone info? Yes it does. If so, let's change that default. Should I change the default and write a NEWS entry? I guess we also need NEWS entries for kill-whole-line, vis-mode, the new behavior of R and friends in dired when applied to . and .. (assuming a final decision was made on that issue, this was not completely clear) and for Info-hide-note-references which never got mentioned in the NEWS. I could write NEWS entries for kill-whole-line and vis-mode and, if desired, for the two other issues. There is actually one problem, which occurs in indices. This problem occurs both in the Emacs and the stand-alone version. Actually index menus are "weird" and cause a variety of problems which I will describe (at least those I actually know of) in this message and the next. In emacs Info or stand-alone info do g (emacs)Key Index RETURN. Now, in Emacs with Info-scroll-prefer-subnodes set to t, SPC immediately carries us to (emacs)Shell Commands in Dired, the node referenced by the first Index entry. Not very useful (at least in my opinion), but consistent. With Info-scroll-prefer-subnodes set to nil or in the stand-alone Info, we first scroll through the index and then go to (emacs)Shell Commands in Dired. It would be more consistent with the "browse through everything consecutively as if it were one single document" philosophy if we went to the next node, (emacs)Option Index instead. There are related problems. In Emacs Info, `]' and `[' behave as usual in Indices. In the stand-alone version, they do not. (Just try to "browse" through the various Emacs manual indices using `]' and `[' in the stand-alone Info.) There is no easy solution for the problems described in the preceding two paragraphs and they all have the same cause. It would be easy to change the behavior of Emacs Info with Info-scroll-prefer-subnodes set to nil to move through the consecutive indices in the logical way by borrowing code from the Emacs versions of `]' and '['. I would guess that it would not be excessively difficult to change all involved stand-alone behavior by adopting the "algorithm" used by Emacs `]' and `[' to determine whether we are in an index or not. The problem is that the method used by `[' and `]'' is not a very reliable "algorithm" at all. To Emacs `]' and `[' we are in an index if and only if the node name contains the word "index". There are plenty of legitimate reasons for a non-index node name to contain the name "index". For instance, (texinfo)Index Entries is an actual example. Fortunately this node does not contain a menu, or Emacs `[' and ']' could have behaved extremely confusingly in that neighborhood. A reliable functioning of Emacs `[' and ']' would require the convention that a non-index node with a menu should *not* have the word "index" in its name. This convention seems to strict. I believe all the above problems could be easily fixed once one could answer the following question: How do we determine reliably whether or not a node is an Index? I do not believe that the method used by Emacs `[' and `]': if and only if the node name contains the word "index" is reliable enough by any means. Sincerely, Luc.