Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

[Karl Berry]

    1.  First decide how the Emacs version is going to look.

I had the impression that the decision had been made, namely to hide
those node names by default.  Are there other issues?

    2.  Decide how the standalone version is going to look.

In principle, I would like it to operate the same as Emacs, as much as
possible.  However, the other programmers haven't responded to my
request, so I don't know when this will happen.

I don't know when the next release of Emacs is likely to happen, but I
bet it will be (long) before any Texinfo release incorporating the
changes.

    3.  Implement 1 and 2.
    4.  Rewrite the documentation accordingly.

I think the documentation may need to be updated after 1 is done and
before 2, because whatever info.texi gets shipped with Emacs should
reflect what's in that Emacs, and yet also still be relevant to
standalone Info.

I wish I could say otherwise, that standalone Info will track Emacs
immediately and we could release at the same time, but I just don't have
the person-hours to make it happen ...

Thanks,
karl

Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

Karl Berry wrote:

   I had the impression that the decision had been made, namely to hide
   those node names by default.  Are there other issues?

Yes, as I pointed out in a follow-up, which crossed your reply in
transit.

   I don't know when the next release of Emacs is likely to happen, but I
   bet it will be (long) before any Texinfo release incorporating the
   changes.

So I will rewrite based on the current version of standalone Info.

   I think the documentation may need to be updated after 1 is done

I will take a look at it after 1. is done (and preferably
implemented).  Again, to do a good job, I believe I need to know the
details of 1. , not just the "big picture".  I might have some further
suggestions about these details, depending on the actual chosen
reimplementation of node hiding.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

[Kim F. Storm]

Luc Teirlinck <teirllm@dms.auburn.edu> writes:

> I will take a look at it after 1. is done (and preferably
> implemented).  Again, to do a good job, I believe I need to know the
> details of 1. , not just the "big picture".  I might have some further
> suggestions about these details, depending on the actual chosen
> reimplementation of node hiding.

Since I implemented the node hiding in the first place, I'm probably
biased here, but I honestly don't see why the description of the node
hiding needs a lot of changes to the documentation.

I would simply write -- early in the documentation -- something like
this:

----------------------- snip ------------------------

Notice that starting with GNU emacs version 21.5, the emacs info
reader usually replaces the elaborate menu and node references
desscribed in the following sections by simpler `hyperlinks'.  

If you prefer to see the elaborate references in emacs info too, you
need to customize the Info-hide-note-references variable.

-----------------------------------------------------

What more do you need to say?



-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: { SPAM 2 }::Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

[Luc Teirlinck]

Kim Storm wrote:

   I would simply write -- early in the documentation -- something like
   this:

   ----------------------- snip ------------------------

   Notice that starting with GNU emacs version 21.5, the emacs info
   reader usually replaces the elaborate menu and node references
   desscribed in the following sections by simpler `hyperlinks'.  

   If you prefer to see the elaborate references in emacs info too, you
   need to customize the Info-hide-note-references variable.

   -----------------------------------------------------

   What more do you need to say?

That would depend on the exact reimplementation.  Essentially that the
hiding can lead to surprising results when killing and yanking,
copying parts of the text to file, defaults when using M-x man and
friends and so on.  How you can avoid these surprises by making the
hidden text temporarily visible before killing or copying to
file. (Currently there is no convenient command for that, but it would
be easy to provide one, say `v'.)  Of course, implementation by
deletion would eliminate these subtleties.  Stefan's reimplementation
makes it a lot easier to deal with them, but they are still there.
Actually, in spite of the problems, it has one advantage over
deletion, namely that it would be easy to temporarily show the user
the additional info using `v', which would behave minor mode style.

Essentially, there would be nothing more to say, if your description
were accurate, that is if emacs did "replacing" (buffer editing)
rather than hiding.  That is what I refer to as reimplementation by
deletion.

Sincerely,

Luc.

Re: Divergence in menu appearance between Emacs Info and standalone Info

[Richard Stallman]

    Notice that starting with GNU emacs version 21.5, the emacs info
    reader usually replaces the elaborate menu and node references
    desscribed in the following sections by simpler `hyperlinks'.  

That is a clear description for you and me, but it won't be clear to
the sort of beginner who might need to read that part of the Info
documentation.  Also, the section has several examples which are just
plain wrong for Emacs Info now.  Inaccurate examples will tend to
leave beginners wondering what they did wrong so as to get results
that don't match the manual.