From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Customize Rogue Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:58:24 +0100 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <20030312153955.D24B.LEKTU@terra.es> References: <20030311012051.6EDF.LEKTU@terra.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1047481283 8136 80.91.224.249 (12 Mar 2003 15:01:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:01:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Per Abrahamsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 12 16:01:18 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18t7gj-0001lM-00 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:58:37 +0100 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 18t840-0007Iu-00 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 16:22:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 18t7hB-0003y6-04 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:59:05 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 18t7gr-0003vz-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:58:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 18t7go-0003uw-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:58:44 -0500 Original-Received: from smtp.terra.es ([213.4.129.129] helo=tsmtp2.mail.isp) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 18t7gX-0003pR-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 09:58:25 -0500 Original-Received: from [80.36.30.211] ([80.36.30.211]) by tsmtp2.mail.isp (terra.es) with ESMTP id HBN5LA01.565; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:58:22 +0100 Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.10 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12311 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12311 On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:19:22 +0100, Per Abrahamsen wrote: > Yes, which is why the ":set" functionality probably shouldn't be > considered part of customize proper, and a "set-activate" function > that obeyed it without setting the 'customized-value' or 'saved-value' > property would be a a good thing for philosophical reasons (and yes, I > believe there are practical reasons as well). I'm not entirely sure how to view :set functionality, if not a customize thing. AFAICS, it is something used from defcustom for customize reasons. > Well, internally it call the variable "rogue", which *does* imply a > moral judgement. If I had known people would be this touchy, I would > have used another term. I can accept that I'm touchy, but I don't think I've been wrt the use of words in customize. I think I've complained about exactly *one* message, and on the grounds that I consider it redundant. Well, to be honest, I complained too about the wording of "transition tool". But that was no code, just a message describing a new command. > Yes. It is very frustrating to have my code not judged by its > functionality, but by supposedly hidden meanings and inferred > philosophical implications. I don't ever remember judging your code. I complained about a thing that I don't like. I've also said that I don't like customize, *but* I've also said that I understand pretty well that it is useful and liked by many people. > 1) Is it useful to some people? Sure. > 2) Is it harmful to people who does not use it? Some things are "harmful" to me if forced to use customize. Of course is not your fault that people :set's things that cannot be easily invoked through a lisp function. But it is a consequence of customize nonetheless. > It means that if you edit the form and push the save button, there is > a chance that it will not have the value you just saved next time you > start Emacs. > > Do you think this is useful for the target audience for the form based > interface? Yes. The target audience would *not* use custom-setq. I would. > Believe it or not, there are people out there who is not you, I fail to see how did I imply otherwise. It is very difficult to discuss what *I* do find wrong in customize without using 1st person pronouns. Sorry if English limitations (or my lack of skills) is disturbing you. > Some of the information you see that is > redundant to you is intended for those people who are not you. Yes. That's why I've suggested that should be a way for them to get it, and for me not to get it. And you're insisting that I should because they should. > So you want customize to lie to you? You (or some other Lisp package > you may not be aware of) *did* set it outside customize, so all the > potential problems with saving the variable will *still* occur. If I do custom-setq, I'm setting it "outside the customization buffer", but *most certainly not* "outside of customize", so what I really want is customize to stop lying to me. > Which is exactly *one* variable made *deliberately* hard to set. No. And sorry, but I'm not going to repeat the arguments. > All of these cases are handled by Luc's set-activate. Sure. But I'd still get the message in M-x customize. > However, they are still bugs because we have decided they are bugs. > Providing 'set-activate' is a convenient workaround for the bugs, > which may mean the bugs will take longer to get fixed. There's, to this point, nothing in the documentation to suggest that using :set for complex things not available through a function interface is a bug, or wrong, or discouraged. > If it did more, it wouldn't be useful to *any* people (including you). Excuse me if I disagree. > You will still get a "State: " line, the content will just make it > impossible to distinguish the variable with those that are safe to set > from customize. I.e. all that happens is that you lose information. Only if they aren't safe to use from customize. They shouldn't. A custom-setq'd variable should be saved as a custom-setq. When I edit the value, I'm *seeing* what it is. If I "lose" it is because I'm actively modifying it. > You are mistaken. It is quite possible for a user to forget that he > added a set-activate in his .emacs. And so what? If he changes it, what's wrong with it? /L/e/k/t/u