From: Juanma Barranquero <lektu@terra.es>
Cc: Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk>
Subject: Re: Customize Rogue
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:58:24 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20030312153955.D24B.LEKTU@terra.es> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <rjadg0is5x.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:19:22 +0100, Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> wrote:
> Yes, which is why the ":set" functionality probably shouldn't be
> considered part of customize proper, and a "set-activate" function
> that obeyed it without setting the 'customized-value' or 'saved-value'
> property would be a a good thing for philosophical reasons (and yes, I
> believe there are practical reasons as well).
I'm not entirely sure how to view :set functionality, if not a customize
thing. AFAICS, it is something used from defcustom for customize reasons.
> Well, internally it call the variable "rogue", which *does* imply a
> moral judgement. If I had known people would be this touchy, I would
> have used another term.
I can accept that I'm touchy, but I don't think I've been wrt the use of
words in customize. I think I've complained about exactly *one* message,
and on the grounds that I consider it redundant.
Well, to be honest, I complained too about the wording of "transition
tool". But that was no code, just a message describing a new command.
> Yes. It is very frustrating to have my code not judged by its
> functionality, but by supposedly hidden meanings and inferred
> philosophical implications.
I don't ever remember judging your code. I complained about a thing that
I don't like. I've also said that I don't like customize, *but* I've
also said that I understand pretty well that it is useful and liked by
many people.
> 1) Is it useful to some people?
Sure.
> 2) Is it harmful to people who does not use it?
Some things are "harmful" to me if forced to use customize. Of course is
not your fault that people :set's things that cannot be easily invoked
through a lisp function. But it is a consequence of customize
nonetheless.
> It means that if you edit the form and push the save button, there is
> a chance that it will not have the value you just saved next time you
> start Emacs.
>
> Do you think this is useful for the target audience for the form based
> interface?
Yes. The target audience would *not* use custom-setq. I would.
> Believe it or not, there are people out there who is not you,
I fail to see how did I imply otherwise. It is very difficult to discuss
what *I* do find wrong in customize without using 1st person pronouns.
Sorry if English limitations (or my lack of skills) is disturbing you.
> Some of the information you see that is
> redundant to you is intended for those people who are not you.
Yes. That's why I've suggested that should be a way for them to get it,
and for me not to get it. And you're insisting that I should because
they should.
> So you want customize to lie to you? You (or some other Lisp package
> you may not be aware of) *did* set it outside customize, so all the
> potential problems with saving the variable will *still* occur.
If I do custom-setq, I'm setting it "outside the customization buffer",
but *most certainly not* "outside of customize", so what I really want
is customize to stop lying to me.
> Which is exactly *one* variable made *deliberately* hard to set.
No. And sorry, but I'm not going to repeat the arguments.
> All of these cases are handled by Luc's set-activate.
Sure. But I'd still get the message in M-x customize.
> However, they are still bugs because we have decided they are bugs.
> Providing 'set-activate' is a convenient workaround for the bugs,
> which may mean the bugs will take longer to get fixed.
There's, to this point, nothing in the documentation to suggest that
using :set for complex things not available through a function interface
is a bug, or wrong, or discouraged.
> If it did more, it wouldn't be useful to *any* people (including you).
Excuse me if I disagree.
> You will still get a "State: " line, the content will just make it
> impossible to distinguish the variable with those that are safe to set
> from customize. I.e. all that happens is that you lose information.
Only if they aren't safe to use from customize. They shouldn't. A
custom-setq'd variable should be saved as a custom-setq. When I edit the
value, I'm *seeing* what it is. If I "lose" it is because I'm actively
modifying it.
> You are mistaken. It is quite possible for a user to forget that he
> added a set-activate in his .emacs.
And so what? If he changes it, what's wrong with it?
/L/e/k/t/u
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-03-12 14:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 55+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2003-03-06 8:39 Customize Rogue Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-06 9:39 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-06 15:15 ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-06 15:45 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-07 8:03 ` Per Abrahamsen
[not found] ` <rjfzpzeh87.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
[not found] ` <200303100251.UAA13345@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
[not found] ` <rjsmtvuxd0.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2003-03-10 15:18 ` Kim F. Storm
2003-03-10 14:41 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-03-10 14:42 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-07 19:40 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-08 13:43 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 17:16 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-09 18:03 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 18:25 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-09 18:49 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 20:02 ` Robert J. Chassell
2003-03-10 14:24 ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-11 19:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-11 20:41 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-12 1:26 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-12 12:07 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-03-12 18:38 ` Stefan Monnier
2003-03-13 0:27 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-13 7:48 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-12 20:59 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-09 18:40 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-09 19:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 19:37 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-09 20:03 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 18:50 ` Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-09 19:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-09 20:28 ` Customize and inhibit-startup-echo-area-message Luc Teirlinck
2003-03-10 14:43 ` Customize Rogue Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-10 14:59 ` Andreas Schwab
2003-03-12 12:50 ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-10 15:04 ` Kai Großjohann
2003-03-12 13:06 ` Per Abrahamsen
[not found] ` <20030310163108.44F9.LEKTU@terra.es>
2003-03-12 13:23 ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-12 15:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
[not found] ` <rju1e77b8v.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2003-03-13 14:03 ` Juanma Barranquero
2003-03-12 23:30 ` David Masterson
[not found] ` <rj1y1b8q46.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
[not found] ` <uptov2g78.fsf@synopsys.com>
[not found] ` <rjr89b0vxt.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2003-03-14 0:25 ` David Masterson
2003-03-14 4:21 ` Luc Teirlinck
[not found] ` <uadfx6b0c.fsf@synopsys.com>
[not found] ` <200303142312.RAA17322@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
[not found] ` <15986.27208.152000.911108@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
[not found] ` <200303150002.SAA17358@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
2003-03-15 0:22 ` David Masterson
2003-03-15 10:33 ` John Wiegley
2003-03-15 0:28 ` John Wiegley
2003-03-15 1:04 ` David Masterson
[not found] ` <E18sYEe-0004sQ-00@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <20030311021233.6EE2.LEKTU@terra.es>
[not found] ` <m33cluos3o.fsf@cicero.benny.turtle-trading.net>
[not found] ` <200303111543.JAA14383@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
[not found] ` <m3fzpt7usm.fsf@cicero.benny.turtle-trading.net>
[not found] ` <200303111629.KAA14566@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
2003-03-12 14:26 ` Per Abrahamsen
[not found] ` <E18t07p-0003C4-00@fencepost.gnu.org>
2003-03-12 22:34 ` Luc Teirlinck
[not found] ` <200303110016.SAA14021@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
[not found] ` <20030311012051.6EDF.LEKTU@terra.es>
2003-03-12 14:19 ` Per Abrahamsen
2003-03-12 14:58 ` Juanma Barranquero [this message]
2003-03-13 0:13 ` Luc Teirlinck
[not found] ` <rj8yvj8qfb.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
[not found] ` <200303131444.IAA16109@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
2003-03-13 22:01 ` Per Abrahamsen
[not found] ` <200303131534.JAA16193@eel.dms.auburn.edu>
2003-03-14 5:59 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-07 19:40 ` Richard Stallman
2003-03-10 14:51 ` Per Abrahamsen
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