From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stefan Monnier" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Enhancements to options menu (was Re: Reveal mode) Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 09:37:08 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: <200205081337.g48Db8t04167@rum.cs.yale.edu> References: <200204302119.g3ULJAP06813@aztec.santafe.edu> <5xznzj30j0.fsf_-_@kfs2.cua.dk> <200205031825.g43IP3e00651@aztec.santafe.edu> <5xwuuk6b4q.fsf@kfs2.cua.dk> <200205052315.g45NFFE29713@rum.cs.yale.edu> <200205072359.g47Nxk108577@rum.cs.yale.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1020865156 12872 127.0.0.1 (8 May 2002 13:39:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:39:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Stefan Monnier" , Pavel@Janik.cz (Pavel =?iso-8859-2?q?Jan=EDk?=), storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm), rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 175Rf1-0003LV-00 for ; Wed, 08 May 2002 15:39:15 +0200 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 175RnA-0004sr-00 for ; Wed, 08 May 2002 15:47:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 175Ret-0007Z2-00; Wed, 08 May 2002 09:39:07 -0400 Original-Received: from rum.cs.yale.edu ([128.36.229.169]) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 175Rd2-0007Ns-00; Wed, 08 May 2002 09:37:12 -0400 Original-Received: (from monnier@localhost) by rum.cs.yale.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) id g48Db8t04167; Wed, 8 May 2002 09:37:08 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.4 06/23/2000 with nmh-1.0.4 Original-To: Thien-Thi Nguyen Errors-To: emacs-devel-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:3721 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:3721 > "Stefan Monnier" writes: > > I'm not sure whether those users were novices, but even if they were, > that's not relevant. My point is that fringes are good and if a > novice removes them because she thinks she doesn't need them, she'll > probably hit problems later on because of it. We don't break Java's > memory safety just because some novice Java programmers might ask > "how do I do pointer arithmetic". > > hmmm, you make it sound like turning off fringes incurs some kind of > threat to emacs' structural integrity or design, which would shock me if > it were true. [insert console-freak rantings here.] Admittedly, I forced the tone. But I just feel like users might miss on the neat fringes just because they think they don't want them. If you turn off the fringes you lose: - legibility (chars stuck right next to a window border are more difficult to read; the fringes act like a margin). - continuation glyphs (i.e. it's not the same as on console). - neat icons instead of overlayed text for the gud&edebug overlay arrow. - various future extensions like mouse bindings in the fringes. I don't think the tradeoffs are obvious to the first-time user (even if he's an experienced Emacs user) so she might make the wrong decision. This is to be contrasted to other "similar" things like the menu-bar, the tool-bar, the scroll-bar where the user can be reasonably expected to know what she loses by turning it off. I'm not saying turning off the fringe should be a hidden feature. Just that it shouldn't be in the user's face. Stefan