* Re: Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, Using GDB in NTEMACS) [not found] <200202261006.g1QA6gw30441@unix.simonwiesel.co.il> @ 2002-02-27 3:33 ` Jon Cast 2002-02-27 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 3+ messages in thread From: Jon Cast @ 2002-02-27 3:33 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: cygwin, emacs-devel You wrote: > I think that we need a CygEmacs - an emacs that will be compiled > with the real Cygwin ported gcc (i.e. without the > -mno-cygwin). I should probably point out that I am (slowly) working on such a port of Emacs. > CygEmacs will have UNIX APIs for I/O (files and > sockets), and M$Windows APIs for the display and the keyboard. This > is already done (partly) by the Cygwin port of rxvt. I used to agree with you, but the more I think about it, the more I think the ideal solution (bearing in mind that we are talking about a *Cygwin* port of Emacs) is use the normal LessTif toolkit support, and make LessTif work ``right'' from our perspective under Windows. (This would also allow us to support remote X connections, which is IMNSHO one of the major features X has over Windows.) Only if/while this is not workable/not worth the effort should we use the native APIs directly. > If this is too difficult, It's certainly non-trivial, but it's not difficult, either. All it takes is a grep for WINDOWSNT, and then a check of each of those ~ 206 occurrences to see if each one should read WINDOWSNT or (WINDOWSNT || CYGWIN). > may be a version of Emacs for Cygwin, that use only the UNIX APIs > can be ported. This Emacs version will be used only within Cygwin's > windows - Console or rxvt (Emacs in TTY mode) or real display (using > Cygwin-Xfree). This second approach surrenders practically nothing for the kind of user Cygwin targets once Cygwin-Xfree supports a rootless X server. So, I think if that approach is workable it should be pursued instead. > Any of these version will solve the 2 major issues of using Emacs > with Cygwin - 1. The files (names and attributes). 2. Running of > sub-shells in Emacs (file is not tty problem). It may solve another > problem that bothers me - running a client on the PC to a server on > UNIX. Right, because the alternatives you name don't affect the use of Posix APIs for these operations. (Although I agree that the primary purpose of a Cygwin port of Emacs is to get the Posix APIs for the operations.) > Ehud. Jon Cast LocalWords: LessTif WINDOWSNT _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, Using GDB in NTEMACS) 2002-02-27 3:33 ` Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, Using GDB in NTEMACS) Jon Cast @ 2002-02-27 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2002-02-27 10:07 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: ehud, cygwin, emacs-devel > From: Jon Cast <jcast@ou.edu> > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:33:11 -0600 > > > CygEmacs will have UNIX APIs for I/O (files and > > sockets), and M$Windows APIs for the display and the keyboard. This > > is already done (partly) by the Cygwin port of rxvt. > > I used to agree with you, but the more I think about it, the more I > think the ideal solution (bearing in mind that we are talking about a > *Cygwin* port of Emacs) is use the normal LessTif toolkit support, and > make LessTif work ``right'' from our perspective under Windows. (This > would also allow us to support remote X connections, which is IMNSHO > one of the major features X has over Windows.) Only if/while this is > not workable/not worth the effort should we use the native APIs > directly. I don't use Lesstiff too much, so please take what's below with a grain of salt. I think we should be aware of Windows users expectations, not only of technical merits. In a somehwat limited experience with a Windows port of Gimp (which I believe uses ported toolkits for its GUI), I find that even experienced and computer-savvy users feel annoyed by a very different set of conventions presented by the X toolkits. I don't have enough experience and data to judge whether that's a real concern or just an NIH syndrom, but I thought I'd mention it anyway. > It's certainly non-trivial, but it's not difficult, either. All it > takes is a grep for WINDOWSNT, and then a check of each of those ~ 206 > occurrences to see if each one should read WINDOWSNT or (WINDOWSNT || > CYGWIN). Unfortunately, it's more than that. First, there are those w32*.c files which hide an enormous complexity of the Windows port from the mainline code (that's why you see only 200-odd ifdefs). Some of that code can be safely tossed in the Cygwin port--the part merely tries to wrap library functions with Posix-compliant wrappers--but some cannot. So you might find yourself _adding_ ifdefs ;-) And then there's the issue of the Lisp code. What would be the value of system-type in the Cygwin port? It could use the same symbol windows-nt used by the current Windows port, or it could invent a new symbol. Either way, there will be a need to go through all the bundled packages and make sure code which does a different thing for windows-nt will DTRT in the Cygwin port. The difficulty here is that in some cases the Cygwin port should take the Unix/GNU branch (like with file names and the shell), while in others (like browse-url, for example) it should take the Windows branch. This probably calls for a new symbol rather than reusing windows-nt, but the work has to be done anyway. I counted more than 120 places where windows-nt is mentioned in bundled Lisp code. > > may be a version of Emacs for Cygwin, that use only the UNIX APIs > > can be ported. This Emacs version will be used only within Cygwin's > > windows - Console or rxvt (Emacs in TTY mode) or real display (using > > Cygwin-Xfree). > > This second approach surrenders practically nothing for the kind of > user Cygwin targets once Cygwin-Xfree supports a rootless X server. > So, I think if that approach is workable it should be pursued instead. How is this different from the alternative to use Lesstiff? That one is also based on the ported XFree, right? _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
* Re: cygwin-mount.el (Was Re: Using GDB in NTEMACS)
@ 2002-02-23 9:57 Eli Zaretskii
2002-02-26 10:06 ` Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, " Ehud Karni
0 siblings, 1 reply; 3+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2002-02-23 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: emacs-devel
> From: letters@hotpop.com (Jari Aalto+mail.emacs)
> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:29:27 +0200
>
> all Windows users continue complaining why Emacs does not help them
> to use Cygwin environment more easily.
They should complain to Cygwin developers.
I asked before, and I'll ask again: did someone try to talk to the
Cygwin developers about this issue? Did someone ask them what do
they think about supporting Windows file names better, and if so,
what did they reply?
It strikes me that an important party to this discussion is strangely
absent.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
* Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, Using GDB in NTEMACS) 2002-02-23 9:57 cygwin-mount.el (Was " Eli Zaretskii @ 2002-02-26 10:06 ` Ehud Karni 0 siblings, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread From: Ehud Karni @ 2002-02-26 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Cc: Cygwin, emacs-devel Below is Eli Zaretskii mail from 23 Feb 2002. I think that we need a CygEmacs - an emacs that will be compiled with the real Cygwin ported gcc (i.e. without the -mno-cygwin). CygEmacs will have UNIX APIs for I/O (files and sockets), and M$Windows APIs for the display and the keyboard. This is already done (partly) by the Cygwin port of rxvt. If this is too difficult, may be a version of Emacs for Cygwin, that use only the UNIX APIs can be ported. This Emacs version will be used only within Cygwin's windows - Console or rxvt (Emacs in TTY mode) or real display (using Cygwin-Xfree). Any of these version will solve the 2 major issues of using Emacs with Cygwin - 1. The files (names and attributes). 2. Running of sub-shells in Emacs (file is not tty problem). It may solve another problem that bothers me - running a client on the PC to a server on UNIX. Ehud. --------------- Original Eli's mail --------------- > From: letters@hotpop.com (Jari Aalto+mail.emacs) > Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:29:27 +0200 > > all Windows users continue complaining why Emacs does not help them > to use Cygwin environment more easily. They should complain to Cygwin developers. I asked before, and I'll ask again: did someone try to talk to the Cygwin developers about this issue? Did someone ask them what do they think about supporting Windows file names better, and if so, what did they reply? It strikes me that an important party to this discussion is strangely absent. -- Ehud Karni Tel: +972-3-7966-561 /"\ Mivtach - Simon Fax: +972-3-7966-667 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Insurance agencies (USA) voice mail and X Against HTML Mail http://www.mvs.co.il FAX: 1-815-5509341 / \ mailto:ehud@unix.simonwiesel.co.il Better Safe Than Sorry _______________________________________________ Emacs-devel mailing list Emacs-devel@gnu.org http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-devel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-02-27 10:07 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 3+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <200202261006.g1QA6gw30441@unix.simonwiesel.co.il> 2002-02-27 3:33 ` Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, Using GDB in NTEMACS) Jon Cast 2002-02-27 10:07 ` Eli Zaretskii 2002-02-23 9:57 cygwin-mount.el (Was " Eli Zaretskii 2002-02-26 10:06 ` Emacs for Cygwin (was: cygwin-mount.el, " Ehud Karni
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