From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org,Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: acm@muc.de, Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>,
npostavs@users.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: Why "symbol's value" error about a list?
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 09:40:16 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <2001D107-BAEF-4F0F-97CF-3A77D0F41808@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAC=50j-nhxCVKhZ_HEm3tyspPpOymCd=CvZz5f7=m4LaRJ4AsQ@mail.gmail.com>
On February 6, 2018 9:32:21 AM GMT+02:00, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems there are two issues here - they are not completely separate,
> but
> do seem to be distinct and probably need to be addressed in two steps.
>
> If the statement
>
> > Count me as one of those "some of us". Echoing Lisp code
> > should do just that - no fiddling to "prettify" apostrophe to
> > curly quote etc.
>
> is correct, then I would agree it was a bad design decision. The
> *Messages*
> buffer should display lisp code exactly as it is read and not try to
> 'prettify' it.
>
> The second issue seems to be more about how to make the error message
> more
> informative. I suspect this is a much harder problem to resolve. I
> don't
> know what the right solution is for that, but I do know that I would
> have
> more chance of recognising my error if the message displayed in the
> buffer
> displays the lisp code exactly as it was read by the reader.
>
> Tim
>
>
> On 6 February 2018 at 15:13, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> > > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:46:38 -0800 (PST)
> > > From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net,
> > > emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > >
> > > > The error message given out is:
> > > > Symbol's value as variable is void: ’bar
> > >
> > > That was the old, and legitimate, error message, yes. It
> > > accurately describes what is really going on (as you describe
> > > well, below).
> > >
> > > Now the message is instead (invalid-read-syntax "strange quote"
> > > "’"). Is that better?
> >
> > I think it's somewhat better, because it talks about "strange
> quote",
> > which is a hint for the user about the actual problem.
> >
> > > I suggested that the variable name be enclosed in `...'. That
> > > would make the original message clearer, I think:
> > >
> > > Symbol's value as variable is void: `’bar'
> >
> > That might make things even more confusing, because the text
> actually
> > displayed will be this:
> >
> > Symbol’s value as variable is void: ‘’bar’
> >
> > which loses all hints of what is being quoted here.
> >
> > > > This is a result of the change in `message', silently to convert
> ' to a
> > > > curly quote, by default. Some of us were unhappy at this change
> and
> > > > protested against it.
> > >
> > > Count me as one of those "some of us". Echoing Lisp code
> > > should do just that - no fiddling to "prettify" apostrophe to
> > > curly quote etc.
> >
> > That ship has sailed two Emacs releases ago. We are trying to fix
> the
> > fallout.
> >
> > And strange quotes is only one situation where confusingly similar
> > characters can be presented in error messages, making it hard for
> > users to spot the real problem. We are trying to find ways of
> making
> > such "typos" more evident in error messages.
> >
> > > The error is using a symbol as a variable, when it is not
> > > defined as a variable. Which is exactly what the original
> > > error message said.
> > >
> > > That's the LISP error. Is there a _user error_ here?
> > > Yes, it's the mistake of copying and pasting what was
> > > printed in *Messages*.
> > >
> > > That user mistake is excusable. And we would want to
> > > inform the user about it, if we can't prevent it. But
> > > changing Lisp read syntax to guess what might be the
> > > most helpful thing to tell a user here is NOT the solution.
> >
> > The issue is what _would_ be a helpful message in these cases. You
> > are just saying what should _not_ be done (repeatedly), but that
> > doesn't advance us towards the solution.
> >
> > > Should this Lisp syntax change be reverted? That's the
> > > question being discussed here.
> >
> > No, that's only part of the question. The other, no less important
> > part is if we revert that change, how to make the confusing error
> > message less so and more helpful in understanding the user error.
> >
> >
Lisp code is not changed in messages; only quoted plain text is.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-02-06 7:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 98+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-02-02 22:24 Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Noam Postavsky
2018-02-02 22:52 ` Paul Eggert
2018-02-03 0:00 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-03 0:09 ` Paul Eggert
2018-02-03 0:39 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-03 8:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-03 16:16 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-03 17:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-04 1:16 ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-02-04 1:25 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-02-04 2:05 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-04 2:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-02-04 10:34 ` Alan Third
2018-02-04 15:36 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-02-04 17:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-04 21:31 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-04 11:15 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-02-04 15:54 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-04 14:47 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-04 1:55 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-04 2:10 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-05 1:06 ` Why "symbol's value" error about a list? Richard Stallman
2018-02-05 20:35 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-02-05 21:46 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-06 4:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-06 7:32 ` Tim Cross
2018-02-06 7:40 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2018-02-06 15:45 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-06 15:45 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-06 19:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-06 14:51 ` Richard Stallman
2018-02-06 11:27 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-06 14:53 ` Richard Stallman
2018-02-06 18:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-07 2:40 ` Richard Stallman
2018-02-07 3:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-06 18:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-05 1:06 ` Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Richard Stallman
2018-02-03 18:13 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-02-04 2:05 ` Drew Adams
2018-02-04 4:51 ` Paul Eggert
2018-02-04 9:47 ` Andreas Schwab
2018-02-04 15:04 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-02-04 17:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-04 19:36 ` Paul Eggert
2018-02-04 19:55 ` Philipp Stephani
2018-02-04 20:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-04 20:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-02-04 20:48 ` Paul Eggert
2018-02-04 20:59 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-10-05 0:03 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-10-05 1:01 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-05 8:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-05 23:02 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 0:20 ` Drew Adams
2018-10-06 9:14 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-10-06 14:34 ` Stefan Monnier
2018-10-06 14:57 ` Drew Adams
2018-10-06 15:42 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-06 16:10 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 16:17 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-07 1:13 ` Drew Adams
2018-10-08 3:51 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-06 10:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-06 15:51 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 16:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-06 18:03 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 18:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-06 19:18 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 19:30 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 19:32 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-06 11:22 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-06 11:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-06 12:10 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-06 14:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-24 22:25 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-10-06 13:15 ` Unicode security-issues workarounds elsewhere [Was: Re: Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27?] Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-06 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-06 16:24 ` Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Paul Eggert
2018-10-06 16:40 ` Stefan Monnier
2018-10-09 14:43 ` Noam Postavsky
2018-10-09 15:30 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-09 16:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-09 17:07 ` Paul Eggert
2018-10-09 19:18 ` Andreas Schwab
2018-10-10 9:39 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-10-10 11:18 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-10 14:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-10 15:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-10 15:43 ` Drew Adams
2018-10-10 16:08 ` Yuri Khan
2018-10-15 20:30 ` Juri Linkov
2018-10-10 3:58 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-10 3:57 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-10 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-11 5:01 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-06 15:40 ` eval-last-sexp / C-x C-e, and punctuation like `?’' [Was: Re: Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27?)] Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-16 12:48 ` Change of Lisp syntax for "fancy" quotes in Emacs 27? Garreau, Alexandre
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