From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Mendler Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#62009: 29.0.60; Emacs crashes on setf symbol-name Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:45:11 +0100 Message-ID: <1cfd0b10-546e-c2c9-272a-25d3cdd4ba82@daniel-mendler.de> References: <87o7p5of4n.fsf@daniel-mendler.de> <871qm01s6n.fsf@web.de> <9fcf05e8-506c-6566-e214-2ecf3194b85e@daniel-mendler.de> <83bkl45ul4.fsf@gnu.org> <87v8j9zl3i.fsf@posteo.net> <83a60l13p2.fsf@gnu.org> <87ilf9571k.fsf@gmail.com> <87edpx56xm.fsf@gmail.com> <83wn3ozuyn.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6uszsvq.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30343"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: philipk@posteo.net, michael_heerdegen@web.de, rpluim@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, 62009@debbugs.gnu.org, arstoffel@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 10 13:46:39 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pac8r-0007ZF-7f for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:46:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pac8Q-0001iu-8g; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:46:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pac8I-0001ew-OR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:46:03 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pac8I-0004Ty-GM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:46:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pac8I-0000TM-Cn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:46:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Daniel Mendler Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 62009 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 62009-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B62009.16784523241760 (code B ref 62009); Fri, 10 Mar 2023 12:46:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 62009) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Mar 2023 12:45:24 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54015 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pac7f-0000SJ-IC for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:45:23 -0500 Original-Received: from server.qxqx.de ([178.63.65.180]:34125 helo=mail.qxqx.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pac7e-0000S3-78 for 62009@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Mar 2023 07:45:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=qxqx.de; s=mail1392553390; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:From: References:Cc:To:Subject:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:Sender:Reply-To: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=6VIkuLtwGuMrM1Oc9oU3SC9DtfVJxmMmSizhPaipj4o=; b=Wn/LjAgNrCucoPSosLQ6tdwOqg CUl/WzNB26ebwYqrfe8pxglyQDjGFA1J7F74TNjpa2FjVVD+mGAANdfOPq/fSD52IgRxC1x2BhGoU FmrojVDxc82cNP9drWdUBthryXMXfBYGGMukzuCdHOmdywIDln+NIRE6JFuT0nyrhhsk=; Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <83h6uszsvq.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:257694 Archived-At: On 3/10/23 13:35, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2023 13:00:34 +0100 >> Cc: philipk@posteo.net, michael_heerdegen@web.de, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, >> 62009@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Pluim , >> Augusto Stoffel >> From: Daniel Mendler >> >> On 3/10/23 12:50, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>> Why bother? Emacs is not in the business of preventing Lisp >>> programmers from shooting themselves in the foot, certainly not when >>> that incurs runtime overhead, even a small one. >> >> Of course Elisp is in the business of preventing programmers from >> shooting themselves in the foot, otherwise we would extend Emacs in C. > > We disagree here, and this is a very fundamental disagreement, which > basically means continuing this argument is pointless, since we have > no common basis. I don't see that the disagreement is that strong. For example aset signals an error if you try to access elements out of bounds. (aset "abc" 3 ?x) -> args-out-of-range So there are clearly use cases where signaling an error is justified. In other cases you claim signaling an error is unjustified and a crash is better. I don't like the crashing. That's the whole disagreement. I suspect that you also don't like if Emacs crashes. Maybe it doesn't bother you in this case, but in others.