From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PL support Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 19:54:29 +0300 Message-ID: <1c43f78b-2bc5-8c81-4a57-ba63bb721c85@yandex.ru> References: <9mmFgzvrBwjt_n_VJyaJdXINraNi5HsGpwq-0MLeKiJA7kG2BQA4uywrzjyz7lpRS0OZDpjEi8lspOKYUA7P_QsODsDew_8nbH960G55fmY=@protonmail.com> <83k11ldpxs.fsf@gnu.org> <83imh5dnun.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7wpdms7.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftc9dm07.fsf@gnu.org> <0d678371-2df7-519e-5ec0-7e26bfa6ea34@gmail.com> <11dff979-002e-e03e-2e3e-cdb09fcc409e@yandex.ru> <8017be3d-a4ed-61eb-9bdb-9a95c77a0698@gmail.com> <3adf65ae-fd0d-4fee-adfd-e11d39a148fc@yandex.ru> <01e211df-acfb-fb8a-eedc-7cb439b64cd8@yandex.ru> <57491476-b7d1-ed1e-9eaf-bc45db607ae8@yandex.ru> <835zd2bf2h.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="45025"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 11 18:55:11 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBhu-000Bbq-Py for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 18:55:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34464 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBht-0008Ml-Df for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:55:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBhM-0007qQ-P2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:54:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]:33618) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jYBhL-0005mx-MI; Mon, 11 May 2020 12:54:36 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id l11so5967033wru.0; Mon, 11 May 2020 09:54:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qZaoj9YiwB+0m9jOROXB/fyvNRDx53CWsQ+2Yo/Vm+Q=; b=JHqjCtUkaQ3WuJXyqjfURwDip2tLXx8W1gdAcKRJTGfskZ63wKaeCzgjjo3+CJoLbP kYQq9iQB611wSN1OkUyiLYUrs8GVFXK20s50YT1HkJ/OqraDj0j/S8wJKftCtOosCMof A0UpBlTX/JKQRuFUoQXMr/Kfo7anb/uBD7xCnKPZ2jMcm9KuRbCAWgO6N/MJ8rsXAo5U yk1x1o0bjX5FMDsifC5rVEZaJeFLqc5irWd3paEtf2qJNo4NKQyhO7czk/K+EmXlJI/4 wQXO2NQlPWZbh2Vi5QCXM3kmumSe3i1GeXgOa1AN34s3cxJbHnJemTuUCBnLLW8gLPsd AoyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=qZaoj9YiwB+0m9jOROXB/fyvNRDx53CWsQ+2Yo/Vm+Q=; b=Y9WoSvE73XAfZqb/zfdwD6CzZzrq5ErUynj+Wls4rDOb6CM5LZM4nKVM4BzprHwj83 xTlWY7lJnraPSuMTZIHIbtHr7H8g14y1MqpunQjBFVQjwugwRVHl3xoto5/DBOzEf377 AvFvqYveHUrNVgjy8BaHqx2F4oZPY0ySUih2pGeHAnEH/Ybdvv0lR+Pqnk3+V2a86Uxw FEXhFgLWufuw7H9Mu0njcngxHtkEQ5yDl0xbM6O6LJGW26bYrENJhYAmS0Ck/3ZBgOTR 8EBPIb4Ee3UgzfiQcYSE3DiF7hNm8dX77AY3t130bgqCWjsRQwAtxO9bIJkxEwKwC2MW JcMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Puaggj/h64dOp7QLBXp8C1hsc1f+lWpojK6vaEcyi0GqFYZjQYQ6 EnER2M1rts1GYabAqm7J4v/ZecSN X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJAn6UMu0VBSymCf/8PR87wvXEhZJIZ/kQ39rKaJe8Ajgb3b1kq6odYqrzKQLI8iwKDhZs5dg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f004:: with SMTP id j4mr19870316wro.123.1589216072921; Mon, 11 May 2020 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.3] ([66.205.73.129]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id h1sm27988407wme.42.2020.05.11.09.54.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 11 May 2020 09:54:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <835zd2bf2h.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249827 Archived-At: On 11.05.2020 19:40, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > If by "we" you mean the Emacs project, then we don't actually have a > common shared view of this. You evidently want to keep most of the > packages on ELPA, and maybe even move out to ELPA packages already in > core. My opinion is almost the exact opposite, Stefan is in-between > (perhaps closer to your opinion than to mine), and there are a > plethora of other opinions. these differences of opinion between us > are well known, and we are still debating. Seems so. > We can maybe "track" them in the sense that we will know that > copyright assignments are not being collected for certain packages, > but in practice this makes it impossible to ever include such > packages, Probably, yes. > because getting the legal papers signed many moons after the > contribution becomes harder and harder as time passes. We have live > examples of such difficulties, and had a lot of them in the past. We have examples of such difficulties when getting a package into the ELPA archive. Many of them. Out of those, I believe we would only consider incorporating a single-digit number of packages into "vanilla" Emacs. In the meantime, we're losing out on nearly-built-in support for many file types, e.g. yaml-mode. > Given that the proposal is not to ask for copyright assignment, the > coding standards are already "not imposed" but only "recommended" > (read: waived), Copyright assignment is an organizational standard, rather. But honestly, yes, it's difficult for us to impose hard coding standards. MELPA admins are doing this much more effectively, being #1 popular package repository. I *would* support some sort of choosing criteria why we would want to accept some packages but not others, but "follows Emacs coding standards to a T" is unlikely to work. Or be useful, really. > and Stefan and others seem to say that even cleanness > of design and implementation and compatibility with the overall Emacs > design are out of our hands, I really fail to see what would be the > meaning of "vetted by us" in this context. One obvious thing: every package is highly unlikely to nuke your machine, or steal your credentials. We can vet package releases, at least to some extent. MELPA admins can't do that, they don't have enough manpower or technical ability, given that they build every update of every package as soon as it hits the repository. Not even waiting for version bumps. > That "us" is certainly not > the Emacs project. To me, it sounds like we are being asked to open a > MELPA clone, which makes no sense to me. We could also have other differentiating features. For example, asking authors of "external" packages to sign commits that bump the version number.