From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Bozhidar Batsov" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Brand new clojure support in Emacs ;-) Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2023 08:08:26 +0200 Message-ID: <1b67383f-cc33-4118-8015-5f30cbc2019b@app.fastmail.com> References: <835y4ucrz3.fsf@gnu.org> <831qficgin.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttsehwab.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87fs3x6ge7.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cthmzl.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87a5u56atj.fsf@gmail.com> <87r0nhhgb5.fsf@dfreeman.email> <87y1hp3pjm.fsf@gmail.com> <9b605d5a-3186-4764-b43d-854a68d04d0e@app.fastmail.com> <87jzt745uo.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=1d7977f298264ed88a20adcbc5a8c66c Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33210"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-701-g9b2f44d3ee-fm-20230823.001-g9b2f44d3 Cc: "Alan Mackenzie" , "Eli Zaretskii" , "Danny Freeman" , "Dmitry Gutov" , "Richard Stallman" , "Emacs Devel" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 04 08:10:16 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qd2ms-0008TP-GO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Mon, 4 Sep 2023 02:08:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=bozhidar@batsov.dev; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310053 Archived-At: --1d7977f298264ed88a20adcbc5a8c66c Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Totally missed this message given the high traffic on the thread.=20 > Sorry Bozhidar, and I apologize if this hurt you or disappointed > you. I'm fine with not being your hero anymore and frankly I don't > deserve it: there are no "heroes" or "total jerks" here, just someone > who -- contrary to you -- thinks some Clojure support in core Emacs > is good. Fair enough. I just really believe that the outcomes are better when we = try harder to explain ourselves and understand the concerns of others. P= erhaps I failed myself given how the message exchange between the two of= us unfolded.=20 > It's just you're just coming across as very defensive. Maybe I > misunderstood "the gist" of your position just as you previously > misinterpreted a position of mine. I was definitely on the defence, given that some of the messages implied= things with which I strongly disagree - especially the part that I have= something personal to gain from Emacs not having built-in Clojure suppo= rt. The gist of it for me was simply "I'm ware of the impact that the in= clusion would have to the current development process and to the number = of outside contributions we'd be getting". I was also unsure of the reas= oning for this sudden interest in Clojure from the Emacs team. Like most people I don't want to do something unless I'm sure it will be= valuable in some way (e.g. for the health of the project, for the end u= sers, for Emacs itself, etc). Eli's words that he believes that'd be goo= d for Emacs and I perhaps am not thinking about this got me to pause and= think a bit longer. After all, Clojure was probably the biggest reason = for new people to try out Emacs around the time it was introduced.=20 Anyways, despite everything and my own personal frustration, I think I h= ave a reasonably good idea of where we stand right now and what to do ne= xt.=20 P.S. I'm a very emotional person and yesterday I was royally pissed. Nor= mally I think a bit longer about what I write, but that wasn't one of th= ose days.=20 On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:20 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 4:55=E2=80=AFPM Bozhidar Batsov wrote: > > > > All I did was to follow up on a suggested path and study technical w= ays > > to getting Clojure editing support in Emacs, better than what we have > > now, which is 0. I think is a pretty reasonable thing to do on > > emacs-devel. It's not an immoral thing to do and I'm not coming for= His > > Highness The Great Clojure Authority Life's Work. > > > > > > Joao, I've tried to be polite, but you behave like a total jerk righ= t now. That's really disappointing as you used to be one of my Emacs her= oes for a very long time. That makes me very sad. Such attitude alienate= s a lot of people from emacs-devel IMO. >=20 > Sorry Bozhidar, and I apologize if this hurt you or disappointed > you. I'm fine with not being your hero anymore and frankly I don't > deserve it: there are no "heroes" or "total jerks" here, just someone > who -- contrary to you -- thinks some Clojure support in core Emacs > is good. >=20 > It's just you're just coming across as very defensive. Maybe I > misunderstood "the gist" of your position just as you previously > misinterpreted a position of mine. >=20 > Jo=C3=A3o >=20 --1d7977f298264ed88a20adcbc5a8c66c Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Totally missed = this message given the high traffic on the thread.

Sorry Bozhidar, = and I apologize if this hurt you or disappointed
you. = ; I'm fine with not being your hero anymore and frankly I don't
deserve it: there are no "heroes" or "total jerks" here, just some= one
who -- contrary to you -- thinks some Clojure support = in core Emacs
is good.

Fair enough. I just really believe that the outcomes are better w= hen we try harder to explain ourselves and understand the concerns of ot= hers. Perhaps I failed myself given how the message exchange between the= two of us unfolded.

It's just you're just coming across as very de= fensive.  Maybe I
misunderstood "the gist" of your po= sition just as you previously
misinterpreted a position of= mine.

I was definitely on the= defence, given that some of the messages implied things with which I st= rongly disagree - especially the part that I have something personal to = gain from Emacs not having built-in Clojure support. The gist of it for = me was simply "I'm ware of the impact that the inclusion would have to t= he current development process and to the number of outside contribution= s we'd be getting". I was also unsure of the reasoning for this sudden i= nterest in Clojure from the Emacs team.

Lik= e most people I don't want to do something unless I'm sure it will be va= luable in some way (e.g. for the health of the project, for the end user= s, for Emacs itself, etc). Eli's words that he believes that'd be good f= or Emacs and I perhaps am not thinking about this got me to pause and th= ink a bit longer. After all, Clojure was probably the biggest reason for= new people to try out Emacs around the time it was introduced.

Anyways, despite everything and my own personal fr= ustration, I think I have a reasonably good idea of where we stand right= now and what to do next.

P.S. I'm a very = emotional person and yesterday I was royally pissed. Normally I think a = bit longer about what I write, but that wasn't one of those days.

On Sun, Sep 3, 2023, at 6:20 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1= vora wrote:
On Sun, Sep 3, 2023 at 4:55=E2=80=AFPM Bozhidar Batsov <bozhidar@batsov.dev> wrote:
<= div>>
> All I did was to follow up on a suggested pa= th and study technical ways
> to getting Clojure editin= g support in Emacs, better than what we have
> now, whi= ch is 0.  I think is a pretty reasonable thing to do on
> emacs-devel.  It's not an immoral thing to do and I'm not c= oming for His
> Highness The Great Clojure Authority Li= fe's Work.
>
>
> Joao= , I've tried to be polite, but you behave like a total jerk right now. T= hat's really disappointing as you used to be one of my Emacs heroes for = a very long time. That makes me very sad. Such attitude alienates a lot = of people from emacs-devel IMO.

Sorry Bozhi= dar, and I apologize if this hurt you or disappointed
you.=   I'm fine with not being your hero anymore and frankly I don't
=
deserve it: there are no "heroes" or "total jerks" here, just= someone
who -- contrary to you -- thinks some Clojure sup= port in core Emacs
is good.

I= t's just you're just coming across as very defensive.  Maybe I
<= /div>
misunderstood "the gist" of your position just as you previous= ly
misinterpreted a position of mine.

Jo=C3=A3o


<= /body> --1d7977f298264ed88a20adcbc5a8c66c--