From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Uday S Reddy Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Key bindings proposal Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:07:58 +0100 Message-ID: <19557.28126.625000.305383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.47167.15000.439215@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87fwys7qao.fsf@telefonica.net> <87hbj8qvd9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87iq3k68ye.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874of466rj.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87pqxsbrie.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87k4 nv7t72.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <19556.28233.750000.798692@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4E5480A100044AD58D82F16054CA3CF9@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281715767 28383 80.91.229.12 (13 Aug 2010 16:09:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:09:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Uday S Reddy' , 'Chong Yidong' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Lennart Borgman' , 'Juanma Barranquero' To: "Drew Adams" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 13 18:09:25 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojwon-0001Bq-Tt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:09:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52941 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ojwoj-0005Fg-RZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:09:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=60856 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OjwoW-0004rv-TH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:09:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojwns-000157-No for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:08:22 -0400 Original-Received: from sun60.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.128.137]:37431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojwns-000137-E6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 12:08:20 -0400 Original-Received: from [147.188.128.127] (helo=bham.ac.uk) by sun60.bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojwnm-0007RR-Mv; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:08:14 +0100 Original-Received: from mx1.cs.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.192.53]) by bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ojwnm-0005bt-D2; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:08:14 +0100 Original-Received: from gromit.cs.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.193.16] helo=MARUTI.cs.bham.ac.uk) by mx1.cs.bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1Ojwnk-0005dk-Jo; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:08:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <4E5480A100044AD58D82F16054CA3CF9@us.oracle.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.92a under 23.2.1 [EmacsW32 Version 1.58 2010-08-02] (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128616 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > > the wikipedia page on the windows key says that [treating the > > windows key as meta] is *freqently* done. > > On what basis does Wikipedia say that? Do you believe it is true? > Why? I am by no means an expert on the low-level keyboard issues. So, people can correct me if I am wrong. Alt is "hyper" and the windows key is "super". PC keyboards don't have a "meta". Therefore, the systems that want a meta-key map one of these to meta. It looks like desktops such as KDE and Gnome map the windows key as meta, and their users, who presumably contributed to the Wikipedia article, say "windows key is also known as the meta-key". They are not exactly right, but I admire their diligence in countering the Microsoft corporatization of the everyday keyboard. Such spirit seems to be sadly lacking on this mailing list :-( > I would even guess that most Windows users never use the ALT key in > a Windows-specific way (except for CONTROL-ALT-DELETE) and never use > the Window key at all. For one thing, most are not programmers > (another guess), and most interact with Windows using the mouse most > of the time, not the keyboard. And my guess is that _very_ few > (proportionally) users of Windows use menu accelerators. I think the issues of "most Windows users" are not relevant here. This is emacs-developers mailing list after all. We are only interested in Windows users that also use Emacs. And, these users can learn key bindings if they think they are useful. > Being able to use menu accelerators or use the Window key as Meta > (or as Control or Super or Hyper or...) as an _optional_ behavior is > one thing. AFAIK, no one has objected to that, so if that is all > you are arguing about then the story should be over and done. That is indeed what we are arguing about, because Yidong has said (on 8 Aug): > Even for non-default usage, putting Emacs in charge of the Windows key > seems unacceptable. This is the domain of the operating system. Both Lennart and I have clarified many times that we are not arguing about defaults. We are arguing about capabilities. Emacs, at the moment, does not have the capability to treat the windows key as meta. Lennart knows how to do it, and he can possibly be persuaded to provide a patch, but welcoming his idea a bit more warmly on this mailing list would be a good first step. > And ALT as Meta in Emacs is as old as the hills and as common as > their wildflowers. What does Wikipedia say about that? Does it > tell you that using ALT as Meta "is *frequently* done" in Emacs? Come on. Meta keys existed before Bill Gates learnt to program, and Emacs has existed long before the PC keyboards came on the scene. Treating ALT as meta on PC keyboards was a natural choice because they were free modifier keys. Nobody is faulting Emacs for having done that. But, the current position is that enough keyboards have the windows/super key and Microsoft has unlocked it on Windows, according to Lennart. And, using the windows/super key as meta provides significant advantages in enabling keyboard access to the Emacs menubar. > Do not be afraid. ;-) But do show the logic please, if there is any. I just stated it above, for the umpteenth time. The rest of your post is not relevant because it is talking about defaults, which we are not. You can read it again and note that it is irrelevant. Cheers, Uday > > > For better or worse, Microsoft has ended up providing us with a > > good pair of modifier keys. Now, let us put them to good use! > > ALT as Meta key is definitely put to good use by Emacs. On all > platforms. Out of the box. Always has been. You can easily move > among platforms and keyboards and change nothing about how you use > the ALT key. > > Well, on Windows you might need to first set a variable or two to > prevent Windows from grabbing ALT for its own use in some cases. > But other than that using ALT in Emacs is pretty transparent across > platforms. > > If you want to argue that Emacs should by default grab ALT for Meta > in all cases (including for example `(w32-register-hot-key > [M-tab])', then go for it: make the argument. Personally, I > probably would not object to such a change. > > The Window key, on the other hand, is not available for non-PC > keyboards. There is no special reason to give it any default > behavior in Emacs. Leave it open, for users to bind as they wish. > >