From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Uday S Reddy Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Key bindings proposal Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:57:11 +0100 Message-ID: <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.47167.15000.439215@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87fwys7qao.fsf@telefonica.net> <87hbj8qvd9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87iq3k68ye.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874of466rj.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87pqxsbrie.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87k4nv7t72.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <19556.28233.750000.798692@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281689863 6470 80.91.229.12 (13 Aug 2010 08:57:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:57:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Uday S Reddy , Chong Yidong , Lennart Borgman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 13 10:57:42 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojq57-00077C-J3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:57:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49416 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ojq56-0003Uq-CU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 04:57:40 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=33148 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ojq4w-0003Sz-IP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 04:57:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojq4v-00027d-8z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 04:57:30 -0400 Original-Received: from sun61.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.128.150]:60759) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojq4v-00027Q-1B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 04:57:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [147.188.128.127] (helo=bham.ac.uk) by sun61.bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ojq4s-0000dU-N2; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:57:26 +0100 Original-Received: from mx1.cs.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.192.53]) by bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ojq4s-0003CD-D9; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:57:26 +0100 Original-Received: from gromit.cs.bham.ac.uk ([147.188.193.16] helo=MARUTI.cs.bham.ac.uk) by mx1.cs.bham.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.51) id 1Ojq4r-0002kh-Kb; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:57:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.1.92a under 23.2.1 [EmacsW32 Version 1.58 2010-08-02] (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128593 Archived-At: Juanma Barranquero writes: > Am I not a user? Can't I state that I wouldn't want Emacs to > forcefully hijack the Windows key for meta? Yes, sure. But, I think you are joining in in a subthread where Yidong has been pushing the view that treating the windows key as meta is unreasonable. On the other hand, the wikipedia page on the windows key says that it is *freqently* done. > > We are talking about providing the users with a choice between > > > > - keyboard access to Emacs's own menus, and > > I can access Emacs' own menus quite well if I set `w32-pass-alt-to-system'. We have been through this before. The current Emacs provision is sub-optimal for normal users like me, and it is unworkable for sticky-keys uses like Lennart. > > - the fancy applications for a pair of modifier keys that Microsoft > > dreamt up of as justification for putting its own trademark on them. > > You don't find them useful. That does not make it "fancy applications". Well, those of us that depend on commercial products develop antennae that can sense the difference between a marketing gimmick and a truly engineered feature. The Microsoft-branded windows keys (for which the keyboard manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Microsoft!) seem to fall in the former camp. So, the more we can violate Microsoft's designs, the better we feel. By arguing for using the windows key the Microsoft way, you are unwittingly championing the Microsoft gimmicry. > > Is that choice so hard to understand? > > It is a false choice. Is it really? The majority of the functions that have been put on the windows key can already be obtained by other means. Win = C+Esc Win+Tab = Alt+Tab Win+F1 = F1 Win+R = C+Esc R Win+F = C+Esc f Win+Pause = C+Esc R sysdm.cpl (ok, that one needed some research!) Win+L = C+Alt+Delete win+[up] = Alt+Space x and so on. Many other functions are quite infrequently used. None of them seems important enough to give up good keyboard access to Emacs's own menus. For the seasoned Emacs users, something like 90% of our work is done inside Emacs and only around 10% in Windows. So, it makes sense for us to put as many resources as possible at Emacs's disposal rather than Windows. I am afraid the logic is on Lennart's side. For better or worse, Microsoft has ended up providing us with a good pair of modifier keys. Now, let us put them to good use! > > - Uday Perplexed > > Rhetorical [http://www.unseelie.org/rpg/question.html] Ok, I plead guilty to that charge. But I have a point as well. Cheers, Uday