POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi,

we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:

1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
    and later dates.

I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
Should we make this change?  yes or no?

- Carsten

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bastien]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again

+1

> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.

+1  (or M-n and M-p?)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Benjamin Andresen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.

But "n" and "p" are already used to move up and down entries in the
org-agenda.
Where would they go to then?

I personally use M-n and M-p to move earlier/later.

> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

No from me. :-)

br,
benny

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bastien]

Benjamin Andresen <bandresen@gmail.com> writes:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>>
>> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
>> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>>    and later dates.
>
> But "n" and "p" are already used to move up and down entries in the
> org-agenda.
> Where would they go to then?

C-n and C-p, like in any Emacs buffer?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Benjamin Andresen]

Hey Bastien,

Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com> writes:

> Benjamin Andresen <bandresen@gmail.com> writes:
>> But "n" and "p" are already used to move up and down entries in the
>> org-agenda.
>> Where would they go to then?
>
> C-n and C-p, like in any Emacs buffer?

Sure. That's a given. But they seem to be the fallback, IMO.

As Leo wrote: ibuffer, gnus, dired & others all use 'n' for next
line and 'p' for previous line.

And with the recent mark and unmark feature inspired by dired, doing
what it does, seems intuitive as far as emacs goes.

Another example I can think of:
  epa-list-keys uses 'n' and 'p' and 'm' and 'u' for the same things
  as dired and ibuffer.

Basically it's the Principle Of Least Surprise. "n", "p" doing what it
does now falls under it for me, based on all the other software I use. 

br,
benny

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bastien]

Benjamin Andresen <bandresen@gmail.com> writes:

> As Leo wrote: ibuffer, gnus, dired & others all use 'n' for next
> line and 'p' for previous line.
>
> And with the recent mark and unmark feature inspired by dired, doing
> what it does, seems intuitive as far as emacs goes.

Fair enough.  

I would favor the `f/b' keys then, as they are close to calendar's
`C-f/C-b' for next/previous-day.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

I tend to agree with the arguments that "n" and "p" should move
vertically in the agenda buffer, because many Emacs modes do
it like this.

So it seem to me that this discussion should focus on which keys should
move the agenda forward and backward in time.

- Carsten

On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Benjamin Andresen wrote:

> Hey Bastien,
>
> Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com> writes:
>
>> Benjamin Andresen <bandresen@gmail.com> writes:
>>> But "n" and "p" are already used to move up and down entries in the
>>> org-agenda.
>>> Where would they go to then?
>>
>> C-n and C-p, like in any Emacs buffer?
>
> Sure. That's a given. But they seem to be the fallback, IMO.
>
> As Leo wrote: ibuffer, gnus, dired & others all use 'n' for next
> line and 'p' for previous line.
>
> And with the recent mark and unmark feature inspired by dired, doing
> what it does, seems intuitive as far as emacs goes.
>
> Another example I can think of:
>  epa-list-keys uses 'n' and 'p' and 'm' and 'u' for the same things
>  as dired and ibuffer.
>
> Basically it's the Principle Of Least Surprise. "n", "p" doing what it
> does now falls under it for me, based on all the other software I use.
>
> br,
> benny
>
>
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Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Chris Leyon]

Another solution would be to use "f" and "b" to move forward and
backward in time.  Some other Agenda bindings would have to change to
accommodate this.  Old "f" (org-agenda-follow-mode) could become "F"
which is unused.  But "b" and "B" are both used and would need to be
remapped.

Obviously this is not the easiest possible solution.  However, these
bindings would be very consistent with the conventions of most other
Emacs packages.

The agenda mode bindings are getting very crowded with many functions
and free keys are running out.  It may be time to start creating
prefix-keys/dispatchers a la Dired and Gnus.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 07:48, Carsten Dominik<carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tend to agree with the arguments that "n" and "p" should move
> vertically in the agenda buffer, because many Emacs modes do
> it like this.
>
> So it seem to me that this discussion should focus on which keys should
> move the agenda forward and backward in time.

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bastien]

Chris Leyon <cleyon@gmail.com> writes:

> Another solution would be to use "f" and "b" to move forward and
> backward in time.  Some other Agenda bindings would have to change to
> accommodate this.  Old "f" (org-agenda-follow-mode) could become "F"
> which is unused.  But "b" and "B" are both used and would need to be
> remapped.
>
> Obviously this is not the easiest possible solution.  However, these
> bindings would be very consistent with the conventions of most other
> Emacs packages.

Agreed.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

On Aug 25, 2009, at 2:20 PM, Chris Leyon wrote:

> Another solution would be to use "f" and "b" to move forward and
> backward in time.  Some other Agenda bindings would have to change to
> accommodate this.  Old "f" (org-agenda-follow-mode) could become "F"
> which is unused.  But "b" and "B" are both used and would need to be
> remapped.
>
> Obviously this is not the easiest possible solution.  However, these
> bindings would be very consistent with the conventions of most other
> Emacs packages.
>
> The agenda mode bindings are getting very crowded with many functions
> and free keys are running out.  It may be time to start creating
> prefix-keys/dispatchers a la Dired and Gnus.
>

We have started, with the "v" key dispatching view modes.

On the other hand, single keys are sooo nice for the common functions.
:-)

- Carsten

> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 07:48, Carsten Dominik<carsten.dominik@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>> I tend to agree with the arguments that "n" and "p" should move
>> vertically in the agenda buffer, because many Emacs modes do
>> it like this.
>>
>> So it seem to me that this discussion should focus on which keys  
>> should
>> move the agenda forward and backward in time.
>
>
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> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> I tend to agree with the arguments that "n" and "p" should move
> vertically in the agenda buffer, because many Emacs modes do
> it like this.
>
> So it seem to me that this discussion should focus on which keys should
> move the agenda forward and backward in time.

I'm not married to the arrow keys changing dates.  Any keys that are
convenient to use are fine with me.  It has always felt a little weird
that the arrow keys move the date for me but I just got used to that
eventually.

-Bernt

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi all,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> I tend to agree with the arguments that "n" and "p" should move vertically
> in the agenda buffer, because many Emacs modes do it like this.
>
> So it seem to me that this discussion should focus on which keys should move
> the agenda forward and backward in time.

From my current knowledge of Emacs modes (using dired, Gnus, a bit of w3m, and
the like), yes, I would definitely tend to reserve `n' (next) and `p'
(previous) for vertical movements.

For horizontal ones, the common use goes for `b' (backward) and `f' (forward).

At least, if not the letters alone, combinations of those letters (like
prefixing them with Control or Meta or ...).

See (info "(emacs)Moving Point") or section 7.2 of the Emacs manual.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Manuel Hermenegildo]

 > all use 'n' for next line and 'p' for previous line.

I think the modes that use 'n' for next line and 'p' for next/previous
line tend to be 'single page' modes (e.g., dired).  I personally
rarely use n/p even in those: C-n/C-p are automatic in my fingers and
they always work so that I do not need to be thinking which mode I am
in. On the other hand, in multi-page non editing modes (as the agenda
view), "n" and "p" are often page (or node, etc.) forward and back. I
think this is why I find it natural to remap those in org. --Man

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Manuel Hermenegildo                     | Prof., C.S.Dept., T.U. Madrid (UPM)
 Director, IMDEA Software and CLIP Group | +34-91-336-7435 (W) -352-4819 (Fax)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Leo]

On 2009-08-25 10:12 +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi,
>
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.

I like n and p to move up and down like in many other modes for example
ibuffer, dired, Gnus etc. Changing this to be incompatible with other
modes alienates orgmode. So I'd vote to keep current behaviour.

> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

NO.

> - Carsten

-- 
Emacs uptime: 7 days, 20 hours, 38 minutes, 33 seconds

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Leo]

On 2009-08-25 11:59 +0100, Leo wrote:
> I like n and p to move up and down like in many other modes for
> example ibuffer, dired, Gnus etc. Changing this to be incompatible
> with other modes alienates orgmode. So I'd vote to keep current
> behaviour.
>
>> I would like to call a vote on this issue. Please weigh in. Should we
>> make this change? yes or no?
>
> NO.

Let me say a few more words.

1. I'd prefer keeping n and p as it is since it is quite standard elsewhere.

2. I don't mind changing <left> and <right> to normal cursor movement.

3. Uppercase N and P can be used to move the agenda to next and previous
   views. I like it better than M-n and M-p pair.

Hope this helps.

Leo

-- 
Emacs uptime: 7 days, 21 hours, 46 minutes, 45 seconds

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Niels Felsted Thorsen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.
>
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

no

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Manish]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Carsten Dominik
<carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>  and later dates.
>
> I would like to call a vote on this issue. Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change? yes or no?

I would have to go with Benny on this. -1

-- 
Manish

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Michaël Parienti]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:12:16 +0200
Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>     and later dates.
> 
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

YES

-- 
Michaël Parienti, org-mode user
gpg:        D4C8 F73D A000 71C7 44EF  27E6 8982 4991 7126 3CE3

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Charles Philip Chan]

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Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

+1 for me.

Charles

-- 
"If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot
of different places, just write a Unix operating system."
(By Linus Torvalds)

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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Noorul Islam]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Carsten
Dominik<carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>   and later dates.
>

I think this will be good taking into the consideration that LEFT and
RIGHT is really creating confusion.

Thanks
Noorul

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Manuel Hermenegildo]

 > I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
 > Should we make this change?  yes or no?

Yes from me. --Manuel

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Manuel Hermenegildo                     | Prof., C.S.Dept., T.U. Madrid (UPM)
 Director, IMDEA Software and CLIP Group | +34-91-336-7435 (W) -352-4819 (Fax)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Michael Gilbert]

On Aug 25,2009, at 2:12 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>   and later dates.
>
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?

Yes.

-- Michael

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Matt Lundin]

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
> 
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again

I'd be fine with this change, though I can't remember when I last used
the left/right keys for cursor motion in emacs. :)

> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>     and later dates.

-1 

In "non-editing" modes like the agenda (dired, gnus, etc.), I expect n
and p to move up and down. In my view, the standard emacs behavior is
that in read-only (non-editing) modes, n and p are reserved for
vertical motion from item to item.

If there is a change, I would recommend S-n and S-p.

- Matt

RE: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Jonathan Arkell]

1. Yes.
2. Abstain.
-----Original Message-----
From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+jonathana=criticalmass.com@gnu.org [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+jonathana=criticalmass.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Dominik
Sent: August 25, 2009 3:12 AM
To: org-mode Mailinglist
Subject: [Orgmode] POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

Hi,

we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:

1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
    and later dates.

I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
Should we make this change?  yes or no?

- Carsten


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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Christian Egli]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again

No. Why would you want to do cursor motion in the agenda?

> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.

No. For consistency sake with other modes such as Gnus.

Thanks
Christian

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Manish]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Christian Egli wrote:
> Carsten Dominik writes:
>
>> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>>
>> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
>
> No. Why would you want to do cursor motion in the agenda?

One could make part of a heading a link to, say, an email, and may want to
visit that.

I used to make the mistake (using arrows in agenda) but I learnt to replace
them with forward-word and backward-word commands.

-- 
Manish

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Chris Leyon]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:31, Manish<mailtomanish.sharma@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Christian Egli wrote:
>> No. Why would you want to do cursor motion in the agenda?
>
> One could make part of a heading a link to, say, an email, and may want to
> visit that.

Clockreport also shows links which can be followed with C-c C-o when
point is on them.

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

On Aug 25, 2009, at 5:31 PM, Manish wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Christian Egli wrote:
>> Carsten Dominik writes:
>>
>>> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>>>
>>> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
>>
>> No. Why would you want to do cursor motion in the agenda?
>
> One could make part of a heading a link to, say, an email, and may  
> want to
> visit that.

You can do this without moving to the link, with `C-c C-o'.

- Carsten

>
> I used to make the mistake (using arrows in agenda) but I learnt to  
> replace
> them with forward-word and backward-word commands.
>
> -- 
> Manish
>
>
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Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

On Aug 25, 2009, at 5:08 PM, Christian Egli wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>>
>> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
>
> No. Why would you want to do cursor motion in the agenda?

There is not good reason to use it.  But it easily
happens by accident.

- Carsten

>
>> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>>   and later dates.
>
> No. For consistency sake with other modes such as Gnus.
>
> Thanks
> Christian
>
>
>
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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Rainer Stengele]

Carsten Dominik schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
> 
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.
> 
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 
1. YES, that was a trap I fell in regularly

rainer

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Daniel Martins]

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YES for both

I fell often in this trap too.

2009/8/25 Rainer Stengele <rainer.stengele@diplan.de>

> Carsten Dominik schrieb:
> > Hi,
> >
> > we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
> >
> > 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> > 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
> >    and later dates.
> >
> > I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> > Should we make this change?  yes or no?
> >
> > - Carsten
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >
> 1. YES, that was a trap I fell in regularly
>
> rainer
>
>
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>

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Re: OrgmodePOLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:12:16 +0200, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> said:

CD> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again

+1.  I find these two keys have confused me more than any others when I
accidentally shift forward and backward because I'm trying to navigate
to a link quickly to open it.  This is usually when my hands aren't on
the keyboard previously, probably because of a different link, as that's
when I tend to use arrow keys: after coming back from the mouse just to
do motion without other typing.

CD> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
CD> and later dates.

I'm somewhat ambivalent about that, since my hands normally do the ctrl
version of the movement keys when on the keyboard and I don't use just
"n" and "p".  But I think everyone else has given plenty of indication
they do, so I don't think this is a good choice unfortunately.
-- 
\ Wes Hardaker                           http://pontifications.hardakers.net /
 \_____ "In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than ________/
       \_______ the soap, and much more difficult to find." _______/
               \_________ -- Terry Pratchett ______________/
                         \__________________/

Re: OrgmodeOrgmodePOLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Wes Hardaker]

>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:30:51 -0700, Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> said:

>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:12:16 +0200, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> said:
CD> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again

WH> +1.  I find these two keys have confused me more than any others 

Thinking about it further, I realized a good part of the confusion
results from the up/down keys actually doing in-buffer movement and
left/right doing date movement.  I don't think that's "natural" for
people.  They expect the arrows, be it up/down/left/right, to act in a
similar fashion to each other.

I don't think this is the right approach either, but I mention it for
completeness: if you removed the up/down arrow bindings I bet people
would stop trying to use arrows for navigation at all, which would be
better than leaving them "half bound".  Granted, I think people still
expect arrows to always be bound to in-buffer movement anyway, so the
current default is confusing and it would be better to let the
left/right bound again to in-buffer movement.

-- 
\ Wes Hardaker                           http://pontifications.hardakers.net /
 \_____ "In the bathtub of history the truth is harder to hold than ________/
       \_______ the soap, and much more difficult to find." _______/
               \_________ -- Terry Pratchett ______________/
                         \__________________/

Re: Re: OrgmodeOrgmodePOLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Dale Smith]

Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 08:30:51 -0700, Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> said:
>
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:12:16 +0200, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> said:
> CD> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
>
> WH> +1.  I find these two keys have confused me more than any others 
>
> Thinking about it further, I realized a good part of the confusion
> results from the up/down keys actually doing in-buffer movement and
> left/right doing date movement.  I don't think that's "natural" for
> people.  They expect the arrows, be it up/down/left/right, to act in a
> similar fashion to each other.

Yes, I think your are right.

I also used to experience this problem a while ago.  And then I picked
up some code in this list that highlight the current agenda line:

(add-hook 'org-agenda-mode-hook '(lambda () (hl-line-mode 1)))

(I think that's the code anyway.)  And now I *never* go off in the
weeds with my Right & Left keys.

For me, I think I use the cursor to help my eyes focus on something.
Usually in the agenda the cursor is off to one side. I want to move it
to the column I'm actuallly looking at, so I "lean" on it for about
the right key-repeat time to get it there.  That would throw the
agenda several months in the future.

But that all stopped once I started using that hightlight code above.

My $.02

-Dale

-- 
Dale P. Smith
dales@vtiinstruments.com
216-447-4059 x2018
216-447-8951 FAX

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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Memnon Anon]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.

No and no for the same reasons Christian Egli mentioned.

Memnon

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Samuel Wales]

A different idea.

Here are the problems with going l/r:

  1) slow
  2) you did it by mistake
  3) you don't know where you are

These can be fixed using the minibuffer.  It looks like this
if you use a 7 day agenda and press right arrow 3 times.

  Press RET to go 1 week ahead to the week starting [2009-09-01 Tue]
  Press RET to go 3 weeks ahead to the week starting [2009-09-08 Tue]
  Press RET to go 3 weeks ahead to the week starting [2009-09-15 Tue]

This is fast because it does not change the view.  You can
select a year ahead by holding the key down.  You can go
left and right.  If it was by mistake, you can ^G.  You know
where you are because it tells you.

No rebinding necessary.

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Samuel Wales]

On 2009-08-25, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> These can be fixed using the minibuffer.  It looks like this
> if you use a 7 day agenda and press right arrow 3 times.
>
>   Press RET to go 1 week ahead to the week starting [2009-09-01 Tue]
>   Press RET to go 3 weeks ahead to the week starting [2009-09-08 Tue]

That should be "2 weeks ahead", of course.

-- 
 Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
research. What people "know" is wrong. Silence = death.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Jean-Marie Gaillourdet]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
> 
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>    and later dates.
> 
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?
Yes, since n and p are nearer to the home row of the keyboard.


- - Jean

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Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi,

thank you everybody for this very interesting discussion.  I have
been trying to think of a way to extract common ground from the
different opinions.

Here is what I have come up with:

1. n/p remain as they where
2. Moving forward/backward though time will be `f' and `b'
3. Follow mode goes to the "F" key, a capital letter does
    make sense here given that some other modes like [G]rid
    and clock[R]eport and [D]iary are on capitals as well.
4. `org-agenda-tree-to-indirect-buffer' is already on
    `C-c C-x b' which is the same key as in a normal Org
    buffer.  Therefore, I think we do not need to find a
    replacement for the `b' binding.
5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
    function that does nothing, except showing a message
    that you should now use f/b to move through time.

We could have an option to allow users to get the time
motion or cursor motion on left/right, if there was enough
support/need for this.  I do not think that this is strictly
necessary, because every user can of course rebind keys
in any way she likes.  If we decide to use an option for
this purpose, the message shown by default with
the cursor keys could also point to the corresponding
variable.

Comments?

- Carsten

On Aug 25, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> Hi,
>
> we have the proposal to do the following key changes in the agenda:
>
> 1. Make the cursor keys LEFT and RIGHT do normal cursor motion again
> 2. Use the keys "n" and "p" to switch the agenda to earlier
>   and later dates.
>
> I would like to call a vote on this issue.  Please weigh in.
> Should we make this change?  yes or no?
>
> - Carsten

=======================
PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS
=======================
prof.dr. Carsten Dominik				dominik@uva.nl
Astronomical Institute 'Anton Pannekoek' 	 	www.astro.uva.nl/~dominik
Faculty of Science, University of Amsterdam		phone 	+31-20-5257477/7491
SCIENCE PARK 904, ROOM C4-106			fax   	+31-20-5257484
1098 XH Amsterdam, The Netherlands
mail: PO BOX 94249, 1090GE, Amsterdam

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Bastien]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:

> 1. n/p remain as they where
> 2. Moving forward/backward though time will be `f' and `b'
> 3. Follow mode goes to the "F" key, a capital letter does
>    make sense here given that some other modes like [G]rid
>    and clock[R]eport and [D]iary are on capitals as well.
> 4. `org-agenda-tree-to-indirect-buffer' is already on
>    `C-c C-x b' which is the same key as in a normal Org
>    buffer.  Therefore, I think we do not need to find a
>    replacement for the `b' binding.

Fine!

> 5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
>    function that does nothing, except showing a message
>    that you should now use f/b to move through time.

Why not letting the <left> and <right> keys doing their usual
job of C-b and C-f?  We can still display the message...

> We could have an option to allow users to get the time
> motion or cursor motion on left/right, if there was enough
> support/need for this.  I do not think that this is strictly
> necessary, because every user can of course rebind keys
> in any way she likes.  

Yes.  I would spare the option.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:22 AM, Bastien wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:
>
>> 1. n/p remain as they where
>> 2. Moving forward/backward though time will be `f' and `b'
>> 3. Follow mode goes to the "F" key, a capital letter does
>>   make sense here given that some other modes like [G]rid
>>   and clock[R]eport and [D]iary are on capitals as well.
>> 4. `org-agenda-tree-to-indirect-buffer' is already on
>>   `C-c C-x b' which is the same key as in a normal Org
>>   buffer.  Therefore, I think we do not need to find a
>>   replacement for the `b' binding.
>
> Fine!
>
>> 5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
>>   function that does nothing, except showing a message
>>   that you should now use f/b to move through time.
>
> Why not letting the <left> and <right> keys doing their usual
> job of C-b and C-f?  We can still display the message...
>
>> We could have an option to allow users to get the time
>> motion or cursor motion on left/right, if there was enough
>> support/need for this.  I do not think that this is strictly
>> necessary, because every user can of course rebind keys
>> in any way she likes.
>
> Yes.  I would spare the option.


OK, the new keys are now active, the cursor keys do cursor
motion without a message (that would quickly become annoying).

Lets try it an see how it feels.

Thanks again for the deep discussion about this issue.

- Carsten


- Carsten

>
> -- 
> Bastien

=======================
PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS
=======================
prof.dr. Carsten Dominik				dominik@uva.nl
Astronomical Institute 'Anton Pannekoek' 	 	www.astro.uva.nl/~dominik
Faculty of Science, University of Amsterdam		phone 	+31-20-5257477/7491
SCIENCE PARK 904, ROOM C4-106			fax   	+31-20-5257484
1098 XH Amsterdam, The Netherlands
mail: PO BOX 94249, 1090GE, Amsterdam

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Samuel Wales]

Looks good.  However, you might want to have cursor movement work, if
the keys will not be functional, so that people can mark text (nobody
mentioned that yet).  Did you get a chance to look at my proposal for
right and left arrow keys?

-- 
Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
research.  What people "know" is wrong.  Silence = death.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Carsten Dominik]

On Aug 27, 2009, at 3:05 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Looks good.  However, you might want to have cursor movement work, if
> the keys will not be functional, so that people can mark text (nobody
> mentioned that yet).  Did you get a chance to look at my proposal for
> right and left arrow keys?

Yes, I did, it is interesting.  However, the main purpose of this
discussion if to get rid of the confusion caused by pressing the
arrow in the agenda, so I thing that really we have only the option
to make them do either cursor motion or disable them.

Your proposal, to quickly move to a far away date in a predictable
way can also be met with the "j" key, or by using a prefix argument
to the left/right (will be b/f) keys.

- Carsten

Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Gregory J. Grubbs]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:

> Hi,
>
> thank you everybody for this very interesting discussion.  I have
> been trying to think of a way to extract common ground from the
> different opinions.
>
> Here is what I have come up with:
>
> 1. n/p remain as they where
> 2. Moving forward/backward though time will be `f' and `b'
> 3. Follow mode goes to the "F" key, a capital letter does
>    make sense here given that some other modes like [G]rid
>    and clock[R]eport and [D]iary are on capitals as well.
> 4. `org-agenda-tree-to-indirect-buffer' is already on
>    `C-c C-x b' which is the same key as in a normal Org
>    buffer.  Therefore, I think we do not need to find a
>    replacement for the `b' binding.

Great!


> 5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
>    function that does nothing, except showing a message
>    that you should now use f/b to move through time.
>

Please allow <left> and <right> to move the cursor.  I will often move
the cursor even in read-only buffers, just to focus on a section I want
to contemplate.  Dired allows me to do that -- even to move left of the
file name to the date or other information on a line. 

Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Charles Philip Chan]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 941 bytes --]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:

> 1. n/p remain as they where
> 2. Moving forward/backward though time will be `f' and `b'
> 3. Follow mode goes to the "F" key, a capital letter does
>    make sense here given that some other modes like [G]rid
>    and clock[R]eport and [D]iary are on capitals as well.
> 4. `org-agenda-tree-to-indirect-buffer' is already on
>    `C-c C-x b' which is the same key as in a normal Org
>    buffer.  Therefore, I think we do not need to find a
>    replacement for the `b' binding.
> 5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
>    function that does nothing, except showing a message
>    that you should now use f/b to move through time.

Looks good, but like others have said, I prefer the <left> and <right>
keys to move the cursor.

Charles

-- 
"People get annoyed when you try to debug them."

  -- Larry Wall (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)

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Re: Re: POLL: Change of keys to move agenda through time

[Peter Frings]

On 27 Aug 2009, at 06:47, Charles Philip Chan wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:

[snip]
>> 5. The cursor keys <left> and <right> are remapped to a
>>   function that does nothing, except showing a message
>>   that you should now use f/b to move through time.
>
> Looks good, but like others have said, I prefer the <left> and <right>
> keys to move the cursor.

(1+ vote)

Marking and copying text from the agenda is something that I do often.  
Or activating a link. So navigating in the agenda's text has its  
merits. Although I'll probably be blamed for not being a true emacs- 
devotee, but I do use the arrow keys for that...

Cheers,
Peter.